CathInfo.com

oh and please don't give me any false flattery, by saying it is a cute post. It is only to mask your derision. At least Neil is more honest in his derision.

Neil,


There is no claim anywhere on that FE Trad website that Bp. Williamson is a flat earther.

I have never heard Bp. Williamson mention FE, but I wouldn't mind if someone asked him about it.


The website's statement says they are "supporters" of Bp. Williamson.


So what?


Also, why don't you answer my question about the Bible's description of the Firmament? Still waiting....

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We can be pretty sure you're not going to hear +W pronouncing emphatically about anything in science or geodetic surveying. That's not his area of concern. He might say heaven is above and hell is below us but the rest will be poetry.
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As for the Bible's description of the firmament, there is nothing in Scripture that describes the physical substance of the firmament, or if it HAS any physical properties.
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Where it is and what it does and how it affects man is mentioned but not what it IS.
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Therefore, we could easily take that to mean that it is being mentioned for the purpose of giving mankind a way of thinking about God's creation, and helping us put our minds into a topic that is far beyond our reach, in other words, how to think about spiritual things. The function of this "firmament" topic in scripture might be entirely to help mankind drag his mind out of materialism and into a higher level of thinking, such as the queen of the sciences, philosophy.
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Modern man is prone to sneer at philosophy and deride the very thing that could be of great help to him in raising his consciousness to a higher level of awareness and appreciation of God's creation, that is, it could help him make of his soul a better, more virtuous being, which could endure all eternity. Alternatively, he could ignore all that and just be stuck in a material rut of ignorance, as if a brute animal. It has been said that the great project of the Old Testament was preparing ancient man for the arrival of Our Lord, and the contemplation of theology, but far too many people in those days strove to keep their minds on mundane things, and to a large degree, not much has changed in that regard for many alive today.
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85% of Jews are atheists.
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In ancient times the upper atmosphere was not something that could be experienced first hand. The X-15 was a later development.
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What does Scripture say about the firmament?

Genesis 1:6  And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7  And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

Genesis 1:8  And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:14  And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:

Genesis 1:15  To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.

Genesis 1:17  And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.

Genesis 1:20  God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.

3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:43  Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built.

3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:49  Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:

Psalms 17:3  The Lord is my firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support.

Psalms 18:2  The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.

Psalms 24:14  The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them.

Psalms 70:3  Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my firmament and my refuge.

Psalms 71:16  And there shall be a firmament on the earth on the tops of mountains, above Libanus shall the fruit thereof be exalted: and they of the city shall flourish like the grass of the earth.

Psalms 150:1  Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power.

Ecclesiasticus 43:1  The firmament on high is his beauty, the beauty of heaven with its glorious shew.

Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:22  And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above.

Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:23  And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner.

Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:25  For when a voice came from above the firmament, that was over their heads, they stood, and let down their wings.

Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:26  And above the firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it.

01 21

23 verses found.

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We should be able to agree that heaven is an example of a non-material reality. Therefore, the "firmament of heaven," being not entirely unlike some aspect or property "of heaven," as Scripture literally says, is not necessarily a physically material reality.
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For example, the north pole, the equator, the Prime Meridian and Mean Sea Level are examples of immaterial realities. Likewise, elevation above MSL, the spring equinox, and the first quarter phase of the moon are immaterial realities. These are examples of things that have no weight, no chemical composition, no alkalinity, no hardness, no transparency, no temperature and no inertia, which are immaterial properties. These are things not found in Scripture, but they are things that cannot be picked up and carried across the room. And they are not made of glass or some other hard material.
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How many of these quotes refer to a "firmament" that is not necessarily of MATERIAL composition?

• And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters.
• And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.
• And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.
• And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
• To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.
• And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.
• God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.
• Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built.
• Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:
• The Lord is my firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support.
• The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.
• The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them.
• Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my firmament and my refuge.
• And there shall be a firmament on the earth on the tops of mountains, above Libanus shall the fruit thereof be exalted: and they of the city shall flourish like the grass of the earth.
• Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power.
• The firmament on high is his beauty, the beauty of heaven with its glorious shew.
• And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above.
• And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner.
• For when a voice came from above the firmament, that was over their heads, they stood, and let down their wings.
• And above the firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it.