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Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 93300 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #1110 on: February 12, 2018, 02:43:30 PM »
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    • Here's the thing about "firmament".
    Original Hebrew word simply means an "expanse" -- which would be an apt way to describe space:   רָקִיעַ
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1111 on: February 12, 2018, 02:49:47 PM »
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    • Incorrect.

    It means hard strong pounded out molten brass, etc.

    That's why the Latin firmamentum means "strong."
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1112 on: February 12, 2018, 03:02:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2018, 02:43:30 PM
    Here's the thing about "firmament".
    Original Hebrew word simply means an "expanse" -- which would be an apt way to describe space:   רָקִיעַ
    The term 'expanse' takes on another meaning when studied in light of Scripture exegeses and the Fathers.  Translations include: canopy, dome, vault, curtain, among others, but the most often used is "firmament". 
    Chrysostom, one of the four Great Church Fathers of the Eastern Church and Archbishop of Constantinople, explicitly espoused the idea, based on scripture, that the Earth floats miraculously on the water beneath the firmament.[86] Athanasius the Great, Church Father and Patriarch of Alexandria, expressed a similar view in Against the Heathen.[87]


    Fathers of the Church who taught flat geocentric earth are Theophilus of Antioch in the second century and Clement of Alexandria in the third, based on the seventh verse of the first chapter of Genesis, both taught that spread over the earth was a solid vault, "a firmament," and they added the passage from Isaiah in which it is declared that the heavens are stretched out "like a curtain," and again "like a tent to dwell in." From Moses, Enoch, Clement and Theophilus and many others, Cosmas Indiocopleustes also reiterates that earth is like a house: the earth is its ground floor, the firmament its ceiling, under which the Almighty hangs out the sun to rule the day, and the moon and stars to rule the night. This ceiling is also the floor of the apartment above, and in this is a cistern, shaped, as one of the authorities says, "like a bathing-tank," and containing "the waters which are above the firmament."


    Origen called the firmament “without doubt firm and solid” (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71). Ambrose, commenting on Genesis 1:6, said, “the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant” (Hexameron, FC 42.60). And Saint Augustine said the word firmament was used “to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassible boundary between the waters above and the waters below” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1113 on: February 12, 2018, 03:05:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on February 12, 2018, 02:49:47 PM
    Incorrect.

    It means hard strong pounded out molten brass, etc.

    That's why the Latin firmamentum means "strong."

    While it CAN mean something solid, it doesn't have to be.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1114 on: February 12, 2018, 03:09:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Smedley Butler on February 12, 2018, 02:49:47 PM
    Incorrect.

    It means hard strong pounded out molten brass, etc.

    That's why the Latin firmamentum means "strong."

    Yes, indeed!

    In yesterday's Mass (Quinquagesima Sunday) I noticed that when the Introit was read, it included the word "firmamentum," and the English translation means "strength" according to the missal.  

    Here it is, from Ps. 30. 3,4 (Old Testament):

    "Esto Mihi in Deum protectorum, et in locuм refugii, ut salvum me facias: quoniam firmamentum meum, et refugium meum es tu: et propter nomen tuum dux mihi eris, et enutries me."

    English translation in missal:

    "Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a house of refuge, to save me: for thou art my strength and my refuge: and for Thy Name's sake Thou wilt lead me and nourish me."
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1115 on: February 12, 2018, 03:19:07 PM »
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    • Indeed, St. Jerome's translation was his interpretation.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1116 on: February 12, 2018, 03:21:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2018, 03:19:07 PM
    Indeed, St. Jerome's translation was his interpretation.

    What other word in Latin should he have then used instead for the word "strength?"
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1117 on: February 12, 2018, 03:27:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 12, 2018, 03:21:45 PM
    What other word in Latin should he have then used instead for the word "strength?"

    Haven't given it much thought.  But the important thing to understand is that every translation involves SOME degree of interpeetation.

    Certainly I concede that several of the Church Fathers considered it to be solid.

    But it goes back to the question of whether they were therein interpreting it as private thinkers or whether they were conveying some traditional truth handed down to them from the Apostles as part of the Deposit.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1118 on: February 12, 2018, 03:27:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 12, 2018, 03:02:41 PM
    Cosmas Indiocopleustes also reiterates that earth is like a house: the earth is its ground floor, the firmament its ceiling, under which the Almighty hangs out the sun to rule the day, and the moon and stars to rule the night. This ceiling is also the floor of the apartment above, and in this is a cistern, shaped, as one of the authorities says, "like a bathing-tank," and containing "the waters which are above the firmament."

    You keep throwing Cosmas in when discussing the Fathers.  He is not a Father of the Church.  His opinions have no authority of any kind.  He is of historical note only.  There is no reason to accept his teaching.  

    Actually, there is reason not to accept his teaching because it is kind of weird.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1119 on: February 12, 2018, 03:34:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2018, 03:27:08 PM
    Haven't given it much thought.  But the important thing to understand is that every translation involves SOME degree of interpeetation.

    Certainly I concede that several of the Church Fathers considered it to be solid.

    But it goes back to the question of whether they were therein interpreting it as private thinkers or whether they were conveying some traditional truth handed down to them from the Apostles as part of the Deposit.

    Haven't given it much thought? But you said that it's only St. Jerome's interpretation. Meaning, subject to error, right? Maybe we should just throw out our missal, since it only contains St. Jerome's "interpretation."

    I think that you should come up with another term for "strength" in Latin if you think that St. Jerome may be wrong.

    Why even make statements like that, if you aren't prepared to back them up?

    Oh, and how many errors are known to have been found in St. Jerome's translation of Scripture? I do know of one. Maybe you can name some.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1120 on: February 12, 2018, 03:36:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 12, 2018, 03:27:30 PM
    You keep throwing Cosmas in when discussing the Fathers.  He is not a Father of the Church.  His opinions have no authority of any kind.  He is of historical note only.  There is no reason to accept his teaching.  

    Actually, there is reason not to accept his teaching because it is kind of weird.

    In general, here's the principle of authority that the Church Fathers have.  They are human beings only.  They have no special Magisterial authority that's any different than any bishop alive today (for the ones who were in fact bishops).  They're important because they CAN give insight into the contents of the Deposit.  When they unanimously agree that something has been taught by and handed down from the Apostles, that's where it's an infallible indicator of Tradition.  But, like all human beings, sometimes they teach on their own authority, and sometimes they even SPECULATE.  Several of them even slipped into one heresy or another from time to time.  I have not seen any indication in any of the Fathers who believed in flat earth that this was something received from the Apostles and that they were teaching with authority.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1121 on: February 12, 2018, 03:39:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 12, 2018, 03:34:36 PM
    Haven't given it much thought? But you said that it's only St. Jerome's interpretation. Meaning, subject to error, right? Maybe we should just throw out our missal, since it only contains St. Jerome's "interpretation."

    I think that you should come up with another term for "strength" in Latin if you think that St. Jerome may be wrong.

    Why even make statements like that, if you aren't prepared to back them up?

    Oh, and how many errors are known to have been found in St. Jerome's translation if Scripture? I do know of one. Maybe you can name some.

    Yet another set of logical nonsequiturs.  So just because I think a different translation of the Hebrew may have been better, we need to "throw out our missal"?

    No, I needn't come up with another word for strength, but a good Latin word that conveys the notion of "expanse".

    I wouldn't even call this an error.  It's an interpretation.

    ahem, the Latin word for "expanse" is spatium ... from which we get the word "space" ... or else one could use expansum.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1122 on: February 12, 2018, 04:32:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2018, 03:05:14 PM
    While it CAN mean something solid, it doesn't have to be.
    I suppose.  But then that means Origen, Augustine and others were wrong. 
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1123 on: February 12, 2018, 04:34:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 12, 2018, 02:35:24 PM
    We are under no obligation to understand those passages literally, whatever the Fathers may have said.  Bede did not.  St. Albert the Great did not. St. Thomas Aquinas did not. St. Robert Bellarmine did not.  Providentissimus Deus explicitly taught that we should not and said that the Fathers were giving their personal opinions and could be wrong.  (And it was only some Fathers, not all saying the earth is flat.)

    We have 1300 years of Catholics believing in a spherical earth and there is no justification for claiming that flat earth is the Catholic position.  It is your position.  That's it.
    No obligation to understand Scripture literally?  When the first understanding of Scripture is always based in the literal?  Do explain.  Do you have another teaching about the firmament?
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1124 on: February 12, 2018, 04:43:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 12, 2018, 04:32:26 PM
    I suppose.  But then that means Origen, Augustine and others were wrong.
    And there is no reason that can't be.  They are not infallible.  Pope Leo explicitly said that they could be wrong on this subject:

    "in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. "
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