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Author Topic: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)  (Read 28461 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2018, 01:26:24 PM »
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  • Not true.
    Oh goodie.  Please provide the teachings of a Father of the Church that actually teaches the globe, using Scriptural references, not just assumed earth a globe in his writings, nor who's talking about the universe in total, but who you think is talking about the terra globus.  :popcorn:
    By the way, if such a man exists, his teachings are contrary to the majority of the rest. 
    Naturally, terra globus doesn't exist but I typed it into a search engine and lo! and behold!  Look what I found.  A poem after your own heart, Jayne.
    Madre Terra Globus
    Antica dea
    Madre che crea
    Gaia virtu
    Persa nel blu

    Caos e armonia
    Verde alchimia
    Casualita
    Senza pieta

    Sabbia e marea
    Fuoco e follia
    Tempo che fu
    Che non e più

    Terra poesia
    Lenta odissea
    Buia luminosita
    Persa nell'immensita

    Terra poesia
    Lenta odissea
    Buia luminosita
    Persa nell'immensita

    Batte in te
    Di fuoco un cuore
    Che riscaldera
    L'umanita
    Translated:




    Ancient goddess
    Mother who creates
    Gaia virtu
    Lost in the blue

    Chaos and harmony
    Green alchemy
    randomness
    Mercilessly

    Sand and tide
    Fire and madness
    Time that was
    What's not anymore

    Earth poetry
    Slow odyssey
    Dark luminosity
    Lost in the immensity

    Earth poetry
    Slow odyssey
    Dark luminosity
    Lost in the immensity

    It beats in you
    Fire a heart
    That will heat up
    humanity

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #121 on: April 27, 2018, 01:49:11 PM »
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  • The third shows Gregory of Nyssa was a flat earther, speaking of the armillary sphere.   This is evidenced by "and then it returns to the same point in the CIRCLE."
    Gregory of Nyssa believed in a spherical earth and it is silly to to try explain the quote away by claiming it is about an armillary sphere because such spheres have a sphere representing the earth in the center.

    You may be interested in this excerpt from Robert Sungenis's book about Fathers of the Church who believed in spherical earth: https://www.scribd.com/docuмent/19644342/The-Consensus-of-Church-Fathers-on-a-Spherical-Earth


    Offline happenby

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #122 on: April 27, 2018, 01:51:34 PM »
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  • That was my point about Latin grammar.  The verb is written in the indicative mood which shows that the example is something he believes to be true.  If he did not believe it, the verb would have been in the subjunctive.

    Examine the passage in the original Latin and you will see that I am right.
    Thomas Aquinas may have been cajoled into thinking earth was a globe, as many are today, but the great saint certainly did not teach it.  Not to mention that the Church attached anathema to anyone who might believe Aquinas or Augustine (or any saint) over the Church, or over the more unanimous opinion of the Fathers.  Its the unanimity of the opinion of the Fathers', as well as such opinions held over time, that assists in determining doctrines more in need of being fleshed out.  And regarding the verbiage of the Latin (above), that is only one aspect of making a determination about whether the quote is viewed correctly. 

    In the meantime, your arguments against flat earth are taking on the note of minutia.  You could have been spared much (and spared us much) had you just asked questions, rather than running rough-shod over the people representing the geocentric flat earth. 

    The flat earth is not only not a psyop or nor is it stupid, it was well entertained in antiquity, favored by Scripture, and even taught by Fathers of the Church.  It is also scientifically and mathematically viable,  empirically provable by even simple tests, but also at the deepest levels, and it removes all stupid contradictions like "level means curve" when globalists speak of the surface of the oceans bending around a globe.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #123 on: April 27, 2018, 02:00:30 PM »
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  • Gregory of Nyssa believed in a spherical earth and it is silly to to try explain the quote away by claiming it is about an armillary sphere because such spheres have a sphere representing the earth in the center.

    You may be interested in this excerpt from Robert Sungenis's book about Fathers of the Church who believed in spherical earth: https://www.scribd.com/docuмent/19644342/The-Consensus-of-Church-Fathers-on-a-Spherical-Earth
    Holy Baloney!
    Well, it isn't holy... it's just wholly baloney! 
    Funny how SUNgenis fails to include the Church Fathers' quotes who used Scripture to teach earth has the characteristics of a flat plane.  ::)
    Seems you missed that smoking gun.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #124 on: April 27, 2018, 02:13:02 PM »
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  • Thomas Aquinas may have been cajoled into thinking earth was a globe, as many are today, but the great saint certainly did not teach it.  Not to mention that the Church attached anathema to anyone who might believe Aquinas or Augustine (or any saint) over the Church, or over the more unanimous opinion of the Fathers.  Its the unanimity of the opinion of the Fathers', as well as such opinions held over time, that assists in determining doctrines more in need of being fleshed out.  And regarding the verbiage of the Latin (above), that is only one aspect of making a determination about whether the quote is viewed correctly.  
    Other Saints did teach it. for example, St. Albert the Great and St. Bede.  (And, since St. Albert was the teacher of St. Thomas, that is further evidence that St. Thomas believed in spherical earth.)

    There is no anathema for believing in spherical earth and there is no unanimous opinion of the Fathers that the earth is flat.  One might make a case that the majority believed it (although most of the arguments I've seen here have been mere cherry-picking) but there is certainly no case to be made that the opinion was held over time.  Belief in flat earth had virtually disappeared well before the time of St. Bede writing his proof of spherical earth, around 800AD. 

    It is telling that you see yourself as cleverly seeing past the trickery that fooled that St. Thomas. You apparently think that you understand Scripture and the Fathers and the mind of the Church better than he did.  Can't you see how unlikely that is?While not infallible, he was one of the most brilliant men in history.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #125 on: April 27, 2018, 02:22:35 PM »
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  • Funny how SUNgenis fails to include the Church Fathers' quotes who used Scripture to teach earth has the characteristics of a flat plane.  ::)
    Seems you missed that smoking gun.  
    You never seem to have a problem with cherry picking quotes when they support your position.  It is good to see that you can understand that a list of quotes does not necessarily prove anything.

    What I would like to see is a comprehensive list of quotes from Church Fathers on the topic regardless of which position it supported.  And while I am wishing, I would like all of them linked to their source docuмents in both the original language and English translation.  
    :ready-to-eat:

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #126 on: April 27, 2018, 03:04:22 PM »
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  • Other Saints did teach it. for example, St. Albert the Great and St. Bede.  (And, since St. Albert was the teacher of St. Thomas, that is further evidence that St. Thomas believed in spherical earth.)

    There is no anathema for believing in spherical earth and there is no unanimous opinion of the Fathers that the earth is flat.  One might make a case that the majority believed it (although most of the arguments I've seen here have been mere cherry-picking) but there is certainly no case to be made that the opinion was held over time.  Belief in flat earth had virtually disappeared well before the time of St. Bede writing his proof of spherical earth, around 800AD.

    It is telling that you see yourself as cleverly seeing past the trickery that fooled that St. Thomas. You apparently think that you understand Scripture and the Fathers and the mind of the Church better than he did.  Can't you see how unlikely that is?While not infallible, he was one of the most brilliant men in history.
    As far as St. Thomas is concerned, trickery happens.  All humans are subject, saints included.  However, I do not equate myself in any way with such a great man in saying earth is flat or that the Church teaches it (albeit in a subdued way), but rather, I have a huge advantage with around 800 YEARS of information and evidence he didn't have access to.  Scripture alludes to this saying:  Luke 10:24  For I say to you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see the things that you see, and have not seen them; and to hear the things that you hear, and have not heard them.

    There is no anathema for believing in spherical earth. But the evidence is persuasive to avoid the idea, and especially for reasons of Faith.

    As far as saints teaching spherical earth, that is somewhat debatable because while a few saints had some explanations for their beliefs, they were hypothesizing about the sphere earth without the backing of the Church in a sense.  I say that because they didn't reference any Fatherly source, nor Scripture. Not to say they did what they did sinfully, they just assumed science proved otherwise. 


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #127 on: April 27, 2018, 03:18:31 PM »
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  • As far as St. Thomas is concerned, trickery happens.  All humans are subject, saints included.  However, I do not equate myself in any way with such a great man in saying earth is flat or that the Church teaches it (albeit in a subdued way), but rather, I have a huge advantage with around 800 YEARS of information and evidence he didn't have access to.  Scripture alludes to this saying: Luke 10:24  For I say to you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see the things that you see, and have not seen them; and to hear the things that you hear, and have not heard them.

    There is no anathema for believing in spherical earth. But the evidence is persuasive to avoid the idea, and especially for reasons of Faith.

    As far as saints teaching spherical earth, that is somewhat debatable because while a few saints had some explanations for their beliefs, they were hypothesizing about the sphere earth without the backing of the Church in a sense.  I say that because they didn't reference any Fatherly source, nor Scripture. Not to say they did what they did sinfully, they just assumed science proved otherwise.
    Your quotes from the Fathers also contradict Scripture by your logic. St. Augustine said the Earth rests on no foundation, whereas Scripture says it does(and even mentions pillars). Other Fathers said it rested on the waters. Scripture mentions the corners of the Earth, but some Church Fathers believed the Earth was shaped like a plate or a bowl. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #128 on: April 27, 2018, 03:51:50 PM »
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  • Your quotes from the Fathers also contradict Scripture by your logic. St. Augustine said the Earth rests on no foundation, whereas Scripture says it does(and even mentions pillars). Other Fathers said it rested on the waters. Scripture mentions the corners of the Earth, but some Church Fathers believed the Earth was shaped like a plate or a bowl.
    Please don't insult me saying I contradict, or the Fathers contradict Scripture, even if you don't understand.  You have called me all kinds of names so I'm without much concern for answering this, but the Fathers and Scripture agree that the earth is supported by pillars, attributed to earth's foundation. In fact, the Church building is a microcosm of earth and the Church's doctrines are also known in scripture as the pillar and ground of truth, so there's a very real connection between the earth and the Church.  There is much to meditate on here but you'll have to read Christian Topography by Cosmas in order to see what the Fathers are saying.  Finally, the land masses we live on rest on the waters (oceans).  If you read the Fathers, it leads to understanding that there is a land/water/land situation going, apparently.  Land below (the physical bounds of hell) waters above that which makes up the oceans, and land resting on the oceans where we live.  Above that, is the firmament and above the firmament is heaven. Literally.  This is the general consensus among the Fathers. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #129 on: April 27, 2018, 03:57:30 PM »
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  • Please don't insult me saying I contradict, or the Fathers contradict Scripture, even if you don't understand.  You have called me all kinds of names so I'm without much concern for answering this, but the Fathers and Scripture agree that the earth is supported by pillars, attributed to earth's foundation. In fact, the Church building is a microcosm of earth and the Church's doctrines are also known in scripture as the pillar and ground of truth, so there's a very real connection between the earth and the Church.  There is much to meditate on here but you'll have to read Christian Topography by Cosmas in order to see what the Fathers are saying.  Finally, the land masses we live on rest on the waters (oceans).  If you read the Fathers, it leads to understanding that there is a land/water/land situation going, apparently.  Land below (the physical bounds of hell) waters above that which makes up the oceans, and land resting on the oceans where we live.  Above that, is the firmament and above the firmament is heaven. Literally.  This is the general consensus among the Fathers.
    I didn't say that the Church Fathers contradicted Scripture, I said they do according to your view that nothing is a figure of speech. Most people assume phrases like "corners of the earth" to be expressions rather than references to literal corners. And you accused globe earthers of contradicting Scripture first so don't get so indignant at the same line being turned back at you. 
    If you read the St. Augustine quote I posted, you'll see that he and other Church Fathers taught there was NOTHING under the earth. 

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #130 on: April 27, 2018, 04:04:32 PM »
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  • I didn't say that the Church Fathers contradicted Scripture, I said they do according to your view that nothing is a figure of speech. Most people assume phrases like "corners of the earth" to be expressions rather than references to literal corners. And you accused globe earthers of contradicting Scripture first so don't get so indignant at the same line being turned back at you.
    If you read the St. Augustine quote I posted, you'll see that he and other Church Fathers taught there was NOTHING under the earth.
    Yea, earth is at the bottom with nothing under it.


    Offline apollo

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #131 on: April 27, 2018, 04:06:27 PM »
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  • The flat earth is not only not a psyop or nor is it stupid, it was well entertained in antiquity, favored by Scripture, and even taught by Fathers of the Church.  It is also scientifically and mathematically viable,  empirically provable by even simple tests, but also at the deepest levels, and it removes all stupid contradictions like "level means curve" when globalists speak of the surface of the oceans bending around a globe.
    Scientifically and mathematically viable, by what science? 
    How can the sun keep the equator warm and not the North pole if both are on a flat surface? 
    How can it be dark in the Philippines and light in New York if the earth is flat?
    I would like to see some photos of the edge of the flat earth, where you step off into outer
    space. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #132 on: April 27, 2018, 04:12:29 PM »
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  • Yea, earth is at the bottom with nothing under it.
    Except Scripture tells us it has pillars under it. 

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #133 on: April 27, 2018, 04:30:41 PM »
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  • Except Scripture tells us it has pillars under it.
    The pillars are in and part of  the foundation.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #134 on: April 27, 2018, 05:22:32 PM »
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  •   There is much to meditate on here but you'll have to read Christian Topography by Cosmas in order to see what the Fathers are saying. 
    Cosmas is not a Church Father.  He has unique ideas about the shape of the earth that do not represent the ideas of those Church Fathers who believed in a flat earth. (And obviously he does not represent the Fathers who believed in a spherical earth.)  Reading Christian Topography does not show "what the Fathers are saying" but one might find it amusing.

    His writing shows the opinions of a random 6th century monk. It has no authority and little significance.