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Author Topic: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)  (Read 28432 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2018, 10:43:07 AM »
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  • 100% of the Fathers of the Church who taught about the shape of the earth taught flat geocentric earth.

    And it can be added that no Pope has taught that the earth is a globe. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #91 on: April 27, 2018, 11:02:50 AM »
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  • I don't try to make Scripture's words fit the globe concept.  I view Scripture as words spoken by prophets
    of ancient times speaking in a way that ancient people could relate to.  And, I don't view the Bible as a
    science textbook, per se.  If it were a science textbook, it would have talked about gravity, velocity, mass
    and acceleration as pertaining to the Sun and Earth.
    The notion that the Bible is for ancient peoples, or is too ambiguous to understand is against Church teaching.  It doesn't have to be a science book in order for us to glean what it says about the earth.  Besides, as has been said and proven multiple times: all the Church Fathers who taught anything about the shape of the earth say its not spherical, but they teach that earth: sits like a disk in the waters, that it is shaped like a Church, or two story house, with the upper story being heaven, and below that is earth and below earth is hell.  More reasons to "look up", the place to where we hope to "rise", and that heaven rests above the impassable (for those in the body) dome.  I could go on, but I'll let it go there.  Its all been said before and although much of this bears repeating, casting pearls is discouraged.     


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #92 on: April 27, 2018, 11:06:08 AM »
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  • And it can be added that no Pope has taught that the earth is a globe.
    Except by approving of every single Catholic university on the continent teaching it to their students. And we have historical evidence that Pope Sylvester II taught it, the man having used armiliary spheres and charting the course of the planets. 

    Offline klasG4e

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #94 on: April 27, 2018, 11:12:53 AM »
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  • Except by approving of every single Catholic university on the continent teaching it to their students. And we have historical evidence that Pope Sylvester II taught it, the man having used armiliary spheres and charting the course of the planets.

    No pope has taught that the earth is a globe.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #95 on: April 27, 2018, 11:34:33 AM »
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  • 100% of the Fathers of the Church who taught about the shape of the earth taught flat geocentric earth.
    Yet more pernicious lies of the flat earthers.
    Anatolius of Alexandria: Eudemus relates in his Astrologies that Enopides found out the circle of the zodiac and the cycle “of the great year. And Thales discovered the eclipse of the sun and its period in the tropics in its constant inequality. And Anaximander discovered that the earth is poised in space, and moves round the axis of the universe. And Anaximenes discovered that the moon has her light from the sun, and found out also the way in which she suffers eclipse. And the rest of the mathematicians have also made additions to these discoveries. We may instance the facts–that the fixed stars move round the axis passing through the poles, while the planets remove from each other round the perpendicular axis of the zodiac; and that the axis of the fixed stars and the planets is the side of a pente-decagon with four-and-twenty parts. (XVII)

    Augustine: Let not the philosophers, then, think to upset our faith with arguments from the weight of bodies; for I don’t care to inquire why they cannot believe an earthly body can be in heaven, while the whole earth is suspended on nothing. For perhaps the world keeps its central place by the same law that attracts to its center all heavy bodies. (City of God, Bk XIII, Ch 18 )

    Gregory of Nyssa: “…on whatever side the sun’s rays may fall on some particular point of the globe, if we follow a straight diameter, we shall find shadow upon the opposite point, and so, continuously, at the opposite end of the direct line of the rays shadow moves round that globe, keeping pace with the sun, so that equally in their turn both the upper half and the under half of the earth are in light and darkness…” (On the Soul and Resurrection)
    Irenaeus: The sun also, who runs through his orbit in twelve months, and then returns to the same point in the circle (Against Heresies, Bk I, Ch XVII, 1)

    Eusebius: “The sun and the moon have their settled course. The stars move in no uncertain orbits round this terrestrial globe. The revolution of the seasons recurs according to unerring laws. The solid fabric of the earth was established by the word: the winds receive their impulse at appointed times; and the course of the waters continues with ceaseless flow, the ocean is circuмscribed by an immovable barrier, and whatever is comprehended within the compass of earth and sea, is all contrived for wondrous and important ends.”



    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #96 on: April 27, 2018, 11:35:46 AM »
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  • No pope has taught that the earth is a globe.
    No Pope has taught that the earth is flat. And the flat earth model also defies scripture by your logic. As the Bible refers to corners of the earth, whereas the only flat earth model that allows circuмnavigation is the flat-circle one, and circles don't have corners. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #97 on: April 27, 2018, 11:38:25 AM »
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  • No Pope has taught that the earth is flat. And the flat earth model also defies scripture by your logic. As the Bible refers to corners of the earth, whereas the only flat earth model that allows circuмnavigation is the flat-circle one, and circles don't have corners.

    I've never made the claim that any pope has taught that the earth is flat. Duh.

    And it still stands that you cannot say that any popes have taught that the earth is a globe either.

    The methodology of the way sedes think is to distract away from what is being currently discussed. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline happenby

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #98 on: April 27, 2018, 11:42:37 AM »
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  • Except by approving of every single Catholic university on the continent teaching it to their students. And we have historical evidence that Pope Sylvester II taught it, the man having used armiliary spheres and charting the course of the planets.
    Well, this is one reason why spherical earth has gained ground.  People assume the earth is a globe.  Pope Sylvester II (Gerbert) was a flat earther evidenced in his description of this "hollow sphere", which represents the universe, not the earth.  From Wiki: (in blue)

    "Richer also revealed how Gerbert made the planets more easily observable in his armillary sphere:"
    "Furthermore, Gerbert instructed Constantine that the north pole could be measured with the upper and lower sighting tubes, the Arctic Circle through another tube, the Tropic of Cancer through another tube, the equator through another tube, and the Tropic of Capricorn through another tube.[29]"

    This proves beyond a doubt that such measurements are made with the line of sight.  This is impossible if earth were a globe.  

    Now, while an armillary sphere can be turned about is if to represent earth as a globe and is represented as such, it can also make the sun stationary when its mechanics are changed.  However, by design of the armillary sphere, its quite clear the sun is not at the center of the universe.  

    An armillary sphere (variations are known as spherical astrolabe, armilla, or armil) is a model of objects in the sky (on the celestial sphere).


    This instrument was designed to show why some stars cannot be seen on certain planes from certain positions, not to explain that earth is a globe.

    More from Wiki:
    The Chinese are quite famous for being flat earthers from ancient times and they used the armillary sphere long before Pope Sylvester II.
    Throughout Chinese history, astronomers have created celestial globes (Chinese: 浑象) to assist the observation of the stars. The Chinese also used the armillary sphere in aiding calendrical computations and calculations.
    According to Needham, the earliest development of the armillary sphere in China goes back to the astronomers Shi Shen and Gan De in the 4th century BC, as they were equipped with a primitive single-ring armillary instrument.[3] This would have allowed them to measure the north polar distance (declination) a measurement that gave the position in a xiu (right ascension).[3] Needham's 4th century dating, however, is rejected by British sinologist Christopher Cullen, who traces the beginnings of these devices to the 1st century BC.[4]


    100% of ancient Catholic authorities who taught anything about the shape of the earth taught earth is flat.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #99 on: April 27, 2018, 11:44:37 AM »
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  • I've never made the claim that any pope has taught that the earth is flat. Duh.

    And it still stands that you cannot say that any popes have taught that the earth is a globe either.

    The methodology of the way sedes think is to distract away from what is being currently discussed.
    You were the first one to go off on that tangent, bub. And you've proven exactly nothing. I've given examples of Popes that believed in a glob earth, I've verified that all Catholic universities and educated Catholics in the middle ages believed in the globe earth, and I've also shown you how St. Bellarmine's condemnation of Galileo NEVER mentioned Galileo's belief in a globe earth, AND I've shown you that Bellarmine believed in the Ptolemaic globe earth model as shown by his mentions of epicycles which only existed in that model. 
    Indeed no Pope ever issued a docuмent stating "one must believe in a globe earth" but they never did that for a flat earth either, so the point is entirely moot. 

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #100 on: April 27, 2018, 11:49:53 AM »
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  • An even bigger stretch of the imagination is to try to make Scripture's words fit the globe.  It is never really done because the globe just doesn't fit the descriptions.  The list below provides some of Scripture's descriptions of earth.   Fascinating that the globe is always promoted by the pagan globalists, yet those of us who are Catholic have no problem accepting their paradigm while refusing to study Scripture long enough and well enough to get the real picture.  Most would rather just trust modern global science and controlling governments because they never lie to us that much.  People have the gall to suggest that Scripture describes a sphere with corners, pillars, a face, a dome, ends, bounds, that when God says circle, He meant ball, that when Scripture describes seeing to the ends of the earth, such ends are found on a sphere.  

    Scriptures concerning the nature of the heavens/sky above and their relationship to the earth:

    Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
    Job 22:14 (HCSB) Clouds veil Him so that He cannot see, as He walks on the circle of the sky.
    Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
    Genesis 1:
    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
    4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
    5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
    Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
    Psalm 104:
    1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
    2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
    3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
    Proverbs 8:27 (ESV) When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep.
    Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
    Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
    Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
    Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
    Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
    Amos 9:6 (NASB) The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth,
    He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
    Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
    Amos 9:6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name.
     Amos 9:6 (ASV) it is he that buildeth his chambers in the heavens, and hath founded his vault upon the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth; Jehovah is his name.
     Amos 9:6 (ESV) it is he that buildeth his chambers in the heaven, and hath founded his vault upon the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea and poureth them out upon the face of the earth; the LORD is his name.
     Amos 9:6 (Darby) It is he that buildeth his upper chambers in the heavens, and hath founded his vault upon the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: Jehovah is his name.
     Amos 9:6 (NASB) The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth,
     He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

    Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

    Job 28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

    Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

    Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;



    1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
     
    2 Samuel 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
    1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
    Psalm 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
    Psalm 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
    Psalm 93:1 The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.


    Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


    Isaiah 43:6 I'll say to the north, 'Give them up'! and to the south, 'Don't keep them back!' Bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the ends of the earth
    Daniel 4:
     10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
     11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:


    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    Revelation 20:8 He will go out to deceive Gog and Magog, the nations at the four corners of the earth, and gather them for war. They are as numerous as the sands of the seashore.





    .

    Note: Flat earthers cite that the enemy is covering up the flat earth theory, to hide the Creator.
    Quote
    But the domed-earth could have been created by some deity or aliens, and left as a terrarium of sorts, to allow life to grow and evolve over billions of years. So the flat earth theory really doesn’t prove that the creator is the God of the Bible.
    Flat-earthers cite Isaiah 40:22 to say that the world circle (chuwg) points to a circular flat earth, not a ball.
    Quote
    It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
    The ‘he’ is our Creator. He is not sitting upon a circular flat earth. He is sitting in the heavens, where the circle of the ecliptic displays the narrative of redemption through the constellations.
    Quote
    The word for ‘tent‘ can be rendered as ‘tabernacle‘; so it’s saying that our Creator is sitting in the tabernacle of the stars which He created.
    Let’s back up to get the context of the verse. Elohim is declaring the glory of His creation.
    Quote
    And to whom would you liken Ěl? And what likeness would you compare to Him? The workman moulds a graven image, and the goldsmith overspreads it with gold, and the silversmith casts silver chains. Isaiah 40:18-19
    He is declaring that the works of man are nothing as compared to His creativity and power. Then He points out His Mazzoroth, the twelve signs in the circle of the Mazzoroth, which have proclaimed His plan of redemption from the beginning.
    Quote
    Did you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? Isaiah 40:21
    Quote
    Do you bring out the constellations (Mazzoroth) in its season? Or do you lead the Bear with its sons. Job 38:32
    The CIRCLE in Isaiah 40:22 is the Mazzoroth in the sky above, that has 12 constellations in a circle on the ecliptic, which declare the Gospel. It is like a curtain which covers the earth, and in which the stars dwell.  It’s a tabernacle (tent) in which the Father dwells.
    We see that Elohim tells them to look up to the circle of the stars of the Mazzoroth.
    Quote
    Lift up your eyes on high and see. Who has created these? He who is bringing out their host by number, He calls them all by name, by the greatness of His might and the strength of His power – not one is missing. Isaiah 40:26
    Quote
    He appoints the number of the stars, He gives names to all of them.” Psalm 147:4
    So one can clearly see that when Elohim referred to the circle of the Earth, He is referring to the circle of the Mazzoroth which acts as a constant witness to those on earth, about His great power, and about His redemption plan.
    Quote
    The same Hebrew word, chuwg, is used in Job 22:14 to describe the circuit of heaven. “Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit (chuwg) of heaven.”
    Here’s a Jєωιѕн Mosaic which shows the Sun of Righteousness holding a globe earth; and it is surrounded by the 12 constellations of the Mazzoroth, the circle of stars which Isaiah was told to look up to.
    Quote
    Satan caused the pagans to pervert the story of the constellations and the sun god, but Messiah is the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2); and the 12 constellations proclaim the story of our redemption by Messiah. Read The Gospel In The Stars.
    Job 38:4 is talking about the creation of the earth, not the physical foundation.
    Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.”
    The Hebrew word yacad is a primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. settle, consult:—appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found(-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, X sure.
    Quote
    So the word foundation isn’t necessarily pointing to the physical property, but the time of creation.
    Proverbs 3:19 reinforces the point:
    Quote
    The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.”
    Job 38:18 simply points to the width of the earth.  The Hebrew word is rachab, which means: a width:—breadth, broad place. Both the flat earth and globe earth have a width.
    Quote
    Have you understood the breadth of the earth? Declare, if you know it all.
    Job 26:10 is declaring that the land will hold the water back, not an ice wall.
    I love the irony of this meme.  They are declaring Job 26:10 to proclaim that the waters are compassed by the supposed ice ring that surrounds the flat earth, but the picture conveys the true intent of Scripture, that land would hold the waters back.
    Revelation 20:9 is talking about mountain or plateau, not a flat earth.
     

    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    The Greek word for earth is ge, is not referring to the whole earth, but to the land of Jerusalem.
    Quote
    ge = which means: by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.
    Just as the city of Jerusalem is set up on a hill, the New Jerusalem will also be set up high.
    Quote
    The armies of the enemies will go up to Jerusalem, to seek to attack it.
    Flat earthers proclaim that Matthew 4:8 proves the flat earth.
     

    Matthew 4:8 “Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
    Simple logic tells us that even on a flat earth, there is no mountain in the world from which you can view all the kingdoms of the world.
    Quote
    So it’s either figurative language; or Satan, the prince of the air, was able to somehow show the grand places of the earth.
    The word ‘pillars‘ in 1 Samuel 2:8 is referring to leaders of the earth, not physical pillars that support the flat earth.
    1 Samuel 2:8 “He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them.”
    First, let’s apply logic.  When constructing a large structure, a foundation is created and then the pillars are mounted on top of the foundation.
    Quote
    Does it make any sense to place pillars under the flat earth, since the pillars would not be mounted on top of a foundation, but rather would sit in open space?
    The first part of 1 Samuel 2:8 tells you that the latter part is not talking about the creation/design of the earth.
    Quote
    Rather it is talking about the leaders of the earth, the pillars, who Elohim controls to uphold civil order in the world.
    The previous verse is talking about raising people up in status, and bringing them down.
    Quote
    The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.” 1 Samuel 2:7
    The next few verses are talking about the saints being preserve from the wicked, and the adversaries of the lord being broken to pieces.
    Matthew Poole’s Commentary on the Holy Bible
    Quote
    The princes or governors of the earth, which are called the corners, or corner-stones, of a land or people, Jg 20:2; 1Sa 14:38; Zep 3:6, and are fitly called pillars, because they uphold the world, and keep it from sinking into confusion. See Ps 74:2; Jer 1:18; Re 3:12. And these are here said to be the Lord’s, by creation and constitution, because he advanceth them to their state, and preserves them in it, Pr 8:15-16, and puts the world, or the kingdoms of the world, upon them, as burdens upon their shoulders: see Isa 9:6.
    John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
    Quote
    Figuratively, the pillars of the earth may design the princes of the world, the supreme rulers of it, and civil magistrates, who are sometimes called cornerstones, and the shields of the earth, Zec 10:4, and so pillars, because they are the means of cementing, supporting, and protecting the people of the earth, and of preserving their peace and property. Likewise good men may be meant in a figurative sense, who, as they are the salt of the earth, are the pillars of it, for whose sake it was made, and is supported, and continued in being; the church is the pillar and ground of truth; and every good man is a pillar in the house of God, and especially ministers of the Gospel; see Re 3:12.
    Revelation 3:12 is saying that the overcomers will be made leaders, pillars, in heaven.
    Quote
    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
    So we can clearly see that 1 Samuel 2:8 is not talking about the physical design of the earth, but to the leaders of the earth, whom Elohim controls.
    Flat earther proclaim that Genesis 1 points to the flat earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    Face in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary has many applications, so we can’t just say that it applies to a flat earth.
    6440. פָּנִים paniym
    Search for H6440 in KJVSL
    פָּנִים paniym paw-neem’
    plural (but always as singular) of an unused noun (paneh {paw-neh’}; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.):—+ accept, a-(be- )fore(-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront(-part), form(-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him(-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look(-eth) (- s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, propect, was purposed, by reason of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them(-selves), through (+ – out), till, time(-s) past, (un-)to(-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with(- in, + -stand), X ye, X you.
    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    Light in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary 3974. מָאוֹר ma’owr or maor {maw-ore’}; also (in plural) feminine mpowrah {meh-o-raw’}; or morah {meh-o-raw’}; from 215; properly, a luminous body or luminary, i.e. (abstractly) light (as an element): figuratively, brightness, i.e.cheerfulness; specifically, a chandelier:—bright, light.
    The moon fits that description as a luminous body, so this verse does not prove that the moon provides its own light.
    17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
    Firmament – flat earthers say that this is the dome, but the Scripture is declaring that the sun and moon were set in the firmament. The firmament is the expanse of the heavens, not the dome.
    The word ‘firmament’ simply means ‘expanse’.
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    The Hebrew word for firmament is raqiya` from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
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    They point to the root word raqa, but it is simply describing something that is spread out, an expanse.
    The Scriptures (ISR98) is a better translation than the King James, and it uses the word ‘expanse’ instead of ‘firmament’.
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    And Elohim said, “Let an expanse come to be in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And Elohim made the expanse, and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. And it came to be so.  And Elohim called the expanse ‘heavens.’ And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the second day.
    Once again the ISR98 renders the proper word, expanse, in Genesis 1:14-18.
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    Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years, and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth. And it came to be so. And Elohim made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, and the stars.  And Elohim set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And Elohim saw that it was good.
    Job 37:18 is simply declaring the glory of a clear sky, which allows you to see the many stars, which reflects the glory of Elohim’s creation.
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    Did you, with Him, spread out the clouds, strong as a hard mirror? ISR 98
    Psalm 19:1-6 is talking about the 12 constellations of the Mazzaroth which encircle the earth on the ecliptic, and in which the Sun travels to tell the redemption story.
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    Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
    Psalm 148:4 simply points to how the water cycle of the earth causes great stores of water to collect in the clouds, vapors, air, leading to rain, snow and hail.
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    Praise Him, heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens!
    Isaiah 40
    They say that there is a glass dome above the Earth
    They base that on Job 37:18, Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
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    Logic would say that a glass dome would reflect the sunlight and cause glares all over the earth.
    It’s proclaiming that the sky is spread out and clear.
    They didn’t have molten glass back then, so it is pointing to a mirror; which back then would have been made of polished brass.
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    The ISR98 Bible renders it, Did you, with Him, spread out the clouds, strong as a hard mirror?
    They point to Daniel 4:10 to proclaim there is a center of their flat earth.
    Daniel 4:10 “Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
    This is just another example of them taking a verse completely out of context to try to prove their agenda.  This passage is not talking about the design of the earth or the place that is the center.
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    The ‘tree in the midst of the earth‘ that Daniel was describing was king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, who reigned over the kingdoms of the earth.
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    He was humbled more than any man, and made to eat grass as the cattle of the field, which at the end of his punishment, caused him to praise his Creator.
    How flat-earthers don’t bother to read the rest of the chapter, I cannot understand.  Verses 20-22 tell you who the tree represents.
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    The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the birds of the heavens had their habitation: it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong; for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
    Matthew Poole’s Commentary on the Holy Bible: A tree: those that write of the language of the East tell us that a tree denote some excellent man. Thus the prophet Ezekiel, Ezekiel 31 throughout, describes the king of Assyria, and Pharaoh king of Egypt, in their flourish, height, and great fall, comparing them to huge cedars.
    And besides that, everyone on the flat earth can’t see the sun, which is supposedly 3,000 miles high,  so how would they all see a giant tree?
    Flat Earthers say that Scripture declares that the moon creates its own light.
    For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light.” ~ Isaiah 13:10
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    Though stars make their own light, this verse shows the direct relationship between the moon not giving light after the sun is darkened.   This cause and effect is seen in other verses, which state that the sun is darkened and thus the moon is darkened too.
    The verse is not pointing to the physical sun, moon and stars; rather it is pointing to the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom.  The ‘sun, moon and stars’ are symbolic of earthly dignitaries, great political authorities and great lights in the political or religious heavens.
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    We know this because in Genesis 37:8-10, Joseph had a dream, ..”And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me. So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” It was symbolic of the power structure.
    Isaiah 13:10 is referring to the Babylonian leaders being removed from power by the Medo-Persians; not to the literal heavenly bodies.
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    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.“
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    Isaiah 13:17 confirms this with, “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
    Isaiah 30:26 again is not referring to the literal heavenly bodies:
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    And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that יהוה binds up the breach of His people, and heals the wound of His blows.”
    By moon, sun, light, are to be understood the abundance of spiritual and temporal felicity with which Elohim should bless them in the days of the Messiah, which should be sevenfold, i.e. vastly exceed all that they had ever before possessed.
    Messiah is the Sun, His followers are the Moon, who reflect His light.
    And once again Matthew 24:29 is pointing to the political leadership of the Jews.
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    And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”
    This is about the High Priest (sun) and the Sanhedrin (moon) and other priests (stars) being cast down from power by the Romans in 70 A.D. Read The Sun, Moon And Stars
    Revelation 6:13-14 symbolizes the decline of the mighty Roman Empire, when there was great political upheaval. Read Revelation 6 – 6th Seal Earthquake
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    And the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs, being shaken by a strong wind. And heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
    They cite Revelation 1:7 to say that only on a flat earth could everyone see Messiah return.
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    See, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye shall see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth shall mourn because of Him. Yes, Amĕn.
    But that doesn’t prove the flat earth, because there is no place on the flat earth where Messiah could return, that every person in every country could see.   Can you see the sky over Jerusalem from where you live? No!
    They cite Revelation 9:1 to say that only a flat earth can have a bottomless pit.
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    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
    Revelation 9:1 is pointing to the rise of Islam from the bottomless pit of Satan’s deceptions, which has deceived many people.  It’s not describing a real pit of the earth.
    The earth is immovable, which may point to the geocentric position of the earth, but it does not prove that the earth is flat.
    1 Chronicles 16:30 is simply saying that the kingdom of Elohim will never be moved.
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    Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established, immovable.
    Psalm 93:1 is echoing the statement of 1 Chronicles 16:30.  They simply are not passages that are talking about the design of the earth, but rather about the mighty power of Elohim.
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    יהוה shall reign, He shall put on excellency; יהוה shall put on strength; He shall gird Himself. Indeed, the world is established, immovable.
    Psalm 93:2 says, Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting.
    Flat earthers wrongly proclaim that Psalm 96:10 declares a fixed earth position.
    Flat earthers post memes like this that say that the Bible proclaims a flat earth, but what they are doing is taking Scripture out of context to make it seem like it is proclaiming a flat earth.
    Read Psalm 96. Does it have anything to do with the creation of the earth or the design of the earth? No!
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    It a Psalm of David, a prophecy of the coming of the Messiah, and of the calling of the Gentiles that believe in him:
    This meme cites Psalm 96:10, but they either changed the words, or are using a modern bible version.
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    The King James read, “Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
    The word for world is tebel = the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—habitable part, world.
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    What is the particular land of Scripture? Jerusalem, mount Zion.
    The next verse talks about the earth, that it should be glad. Should we take that to mean the physical earth should be glad? No!
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    Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.” Psalm 96:11
    Psalm 96 is not declaring a fixed earth. It’s saying that the kingdom of Elohim, made up of those who have a covenant relationship with Him through the Son, will not be moved. And that they will rejoice at His righteous judgment.
    Psalm 104:5 is talking about the design of Earth and the heavens, “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
    Isaiah 45:18: “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…”
    The King James does not include the word ‘fixed’, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
    The globe earth is fixed and immovable in relation to its orbit around the sun.
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    I’m open to the geocentric position of the globe Earth, but even if the heliocentric explanation is valid; nothing but Elohim can move the Earth from it’s circular path around the Sun.
    Verses that indicate that the sun moves, which may point to the geocentric position of the earth, but it does not prove that the earth is flat.
    Joshua 10:12-13, So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Yashar? Thus the sun stopped in the midst of the heavens, and did not hasten to go down for an entire day. 
    Isaiah 38:8, See, I am bringing the shadow on the sundial, which has gone down with the sun on the sundial of Aḥaz, ten degrees backward.” And the sun returned ten degrees on the dial by which it had gone down.
    Flattening the Flat Earth Theory (The Earth is NOT Flat) by Doug Hamp
    Below is a list of 200 verses from Nathan Roberts, who proclaims that they prove that the earth is flat.
    Nathan Roberts wrote a flat earth book called, “The Doctrine of the Shape of the Earth: A Comprehensive Biblical Perspective”; he has a YouTube channel named YourCurvelessEarth; and a website called FlatEarthDoctrine.com.
    Keep in mind that he is proclaiming that ALL of these verses prove that the Earth is flat.  You will see that in fact, NONE of them prove that the Earth is flat; and most of them have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth at all.
    Earth Created Before the Sun: Genesis 1:1-19
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    The Earth being created before the sun may point to a geocentric Earth, but it does not prove that the Earth is flat.
    Universe is Complete: Genesis 2:1
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    The heavens and earth being compete is not about the shape of the Earth.
    Earth Measurements Unknown: Job 38:4-5, Jeremiah 31:37, Proverbs 25:3
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    Job 38:4-5 is not declaring that the Earth can’t be measured; but it is pointing to the One who did measure it all out during its creation. 
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     Jeremiah 31:37 is about the heavens being measured, not Earth.  
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    Proverbs 25:3 says that the height of heaven is unsearchable. On the flat domed Earth, the height of the heaven is limited; but not on the globe Earth.
    Earth is a Disk/Circle, not a ball: Isaiah 40:22, Job 38:13-14
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    Isaiah 40:22 is pointing up to the circle of the ecliptic, on which the constellations travel around the globe earth; to tell the story of our redemption.  The Creator does not sit on the flat earth; so the circle is not pointing to the flat earth, but to the ecliptic in the heavens, which are a tabernacle of stars, on which the Creator sits.
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    Job 38:13-14 is declaring that the Earth is turning (spinning) toward the rising Sun, “It is turned as clay to the seal”.  The Earth is changed, it is transformed, as the sun (the seal) removes the darkness.
    Earth Measured with a Line, not a curve: Job 38:4-5
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    The word ‘line’ is pointing to a cord that is used for measuring.  A cord can be placed on a curved surface, to measure the total distance.  A line is not always straight.  
    Paths are Straight, not curved: 1 Samuel 6:12, Psalm 5:8, Psalm 27:11, Isaiah 40:3, Jeremiah 31:9, Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, John 1:23, Acts 16:11, Acts 21:1, Hebrews 12:13
    Proclaiming that all paths are straight, does not prove that the earth is flat. 
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    The irony is that if you travel East or West on the supposed flat earth map, your path is not straight, as East and West curve around the North Pole. 
    These verses are obviously not talking about the form of the Earth. And the fact that they are declaring to make the path straight, tells us that paths are normally not straight. 
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    “And the kine took the straight way to the way of Bethshemesh, and went along the highway, lowing as they went, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left; and the lords of the Philistines went after them unto the border of Bethshemesh.” 1 Samuel 6:12
    “Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.” Psalm 5:8
    “Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.” Psalm 27:11
    “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.” Isaiah 40:3
    “They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” Jeremiah 31:9
    “For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” Matthew 3:3
    “The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.” Mark 1:3
    “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Luke 3:4
    “He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.” John 1:23
    “Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis;” Acts 16:11
    “And it came to pass, that after we were gotten from them, and had launched, we came with a straight course unto Coos, and the day following unto Rhodes, and from thence unto Patara:” Acts 21:1
    “And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.” Hebrews 12:13
    Nathan cites them so that he can claim that there are hundreds of verses which proclaim that the Earth is flat; but he is taking them out of context, as we can clearly see.
    Waters are Straight, not curved: Job 37:10
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    “By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.” 
    The previous verses in Job proclaimed cold winds coming out of the North. 
    The word ‘frost’ can be rendered as ‘ice’; and the waters become solid ice, instead of moving with the winds. 
    Once again, Nathan is taking the meaning of the verse out of context, as it is not declaring that all water on Earth is straight.
    Earthquakes shake Earth, and does not move: 2 Samuel 22:8, Isaiah 13:13, Revelation 6:12-13
    These verses do not prove that the Earth is flat.
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    2 Samuel 22:3 simply says that the Earth shook and trembled, “Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.”
    Isaiah 13:13 says that the Earth shall remove OUT OF HER PLACE, “Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.” 
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    Earthquakes in the prophecy can represent great political upheavals.  The earthquake of Revelation 6:12-13 was pointing to political upheaval in the declaring Roman Empire; as a result of the first five seal judgments. 
    Eastern Emperor Constantine defeated Diocletian’s army in 312 A.D., which ended the persecutions. Diocletian (the Sun) was so panic stricken, he died insane. Constantine defeated emperors Maxentius and Licinius to become sole ruler of both west and east by 324 A.D. The Roman leaders (stars) fell and their power receded as a scroll. The mountains and islands that were moved out of place, were the countries and people that were affected by this political change. Read Revelation 6 – 6th Seal Earthquake
    Earth is fixed and immovable: Psalm 33:9, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, Psalm 119:89-90, Isaiah 45:18, Zechariah 1:11, 1 Chronicles 16:30
    One can argue that these verses point to a stationary, geocentric Earth; but they say nothing about its shape, so they are not proofs that it is flat.
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    “For he spake, and it was (done); he commanded, and it stood fast.” Psalm 33:9
    “The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.” Psalm 93:1
    “Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.” Psalm 96:10
    “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.” Psalm 104:5
    “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.” Psalm 119:89-90
    “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
    “And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.” Zechariah 1:11
    “Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.” 1 Chronicles 16:30
    “Be still, and know that I am God”: Psalm 46:10
    How is that a proof that the Earth is flat?
    Earth has Pillars, and hangs on nothing: 1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6, Job 26:7, Psalm 75:3, 2 Peter 3:5
    Flat earthers proclaim that the flat earth is mounted on top of pillars, which makes no sense, because in architecture, pillars set on top of the building foundation.  What are the supporting pillars of the flat earth sitting on? Nothing!
    The first part of 1 Samuel 2:8 tells you that the latter part is not talking about the creation/design of the earth.
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    Rather it is talking about the leaders of the earth, the pillars, who Elohim controls to uphold civil order in the world.
    The previous verse is talking about raising people up in status, and bringing them down.
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    The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.” 1 Samuel 2:7
    “Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.” Job 9:6
    “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.” Job 26:7 The north pole is the top of the globe Earth, so it makes sense to mention it, as it’s the logical place to hang a ball (such as a Christmas ornament) from.  The earth hanging from nothing does not prove that it’s flat.
    “The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.” Psalm 75:3. Was the earth really dissolved? No!  It’s speaking of judgment on a wicked world, and the righteous men (pillars) being held up by the Father.
    “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:” 2 Peter 3:5 I’m not sure how this proves that the Earth is flat, or even a globe for that matter.
    Earth has a Face (a geometrical flat surface): Genesis 1:29, Genesis 4:14, Genesis 6:1, Genesis 6:7, Genesis 7:3, Genesis 7:4, Genesis 8:9, Genesis 11:8, Genesis 11:9, Genesis 41:56, Exodus 32:12, Exodus 33:16, Numbers 12:3, Deuteronomy 6:15, Deuteronomy 7:6, 1 Samuel 20:15, 1 Kings 13:34, Job 37:12, Psalm 104:30, Jeremiah 25:26, Jeremiah 28:16, Ezekiel 34:6, Ezekiel 38:20, Ezekiel 39:14, Amos 9:6, Amos 9:8, Zechariah 5:3
    A ball has a face too.  The face of the moon is the side that is facing us.  So these verses do not prove that the Earth is flat.
    The Hebrew word for ‘face’ in Genesis 1:29 is 6440 paniym – plural (but always as singular) of an unused noun (paneh {paw-neh’}; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns);
    Waters have a Face (a geometrical flat surface): Genesis 1:2, Genesis 7:18, Job 38:30
    The word ‘face’ is simply pointing to the surface of the water, so it doesn’t prove that the Earth is flat.
    “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2 
    “And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 7:18 
    “The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.” Job 38:30 
    Earth has Ends: Deuteronomy 28:49, Deuteronomy 28:64, Deuteronomy 33:17, 1 Samuel 2:10, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Psalm 46:9, Psalm 48:10, Psalm 59:13, Psalm 61:2, Psalm 65:5, Psalm 67:7, Psalm 72:8, Psalm 98:3, Psalm 135:7, Proverbs 8:29, Proverbs 17:24, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 5:26, Isaiah 26:15, Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 41:5, Isaiah 41:9, Isaiah 42:10, Isaiah 43:6, Isaiah 45:22, Isaiah 48:20, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 52:10, Jeremiah 10:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah 25:31, Jeremiah 25:33, Jeremiah 51:16, Daniel 4:22, Micah 5:4, Zechariah 9:10, Acts 13:47
    The irony of course is that flat earthers have no photos of the supposed end of the Earth, at the ice wall.
    The word ‘ends’ can mean farthest and uttermost
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    Deuteronomy 28:49 foretold that the Babylonians and Romans would come from afar, to desolate Jerusalem.  Did they come from the ice wall?  No!
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    Deuteronomy 28:64 says that the Father scattered the Israelites from one end of the earth even until the other.  Did He put some on one side of the ice wall, and others on the other side of the Earth on the ice wall?  No!
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    Deuteronomy 33:17, “with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth:” describes the Father causing the Israelites to push the Canaanites to the end of the land of Canaan; not to some ice wall.
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    1 Samuel 2:10, “The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth” is not about the Father judging the ice wall of the flat earth.
    Do you see how ridiculous these examples are?  They are not pointing to the edge of the supposed flat Earth, to an ice wall.
    Earth has Corners: Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1
    Flat earthers teach that the flat earth is a circle, which of course has no corners.  So to make these verses work, they add corners to the outside edges, which are outside of the dome.  That makes no sense!
    Were the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah living outside the dome, on the corners of the flat earth?  No, that is absurd!
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    “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12
    The four corners are outside the flat earth dome, so does it make sense that the angels are holding back the four winds outside of the dome?  No!
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    “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.” Revelation 7:1
    Firmament/Dome: Genesis 1:6-8, Genesis 1:14-18, Genesis 1:20, Genesis 7:11, Genesis 8:2, Job 37:18, Psalm 19:1, Psalm 150:1, Isaiah 40:22, Ezekiel 1:22-26, Ezekiel 10:1, Daniel 12:3
    Genesis 1:8 tells us that the firmament is called ‘heaven’. “And God called the firmament Heaven.” 
    Genesis 1:14-18 tells us that the sun and moon are in the heavens.
    Genesis 1:20 tells us that birds fly in the heavens.  
    Genesis 7:11 points to the moisture, which was collected in the atmosphere, in clouds in the heavens, which was poured out in the Earth.
    Genesis 8:2 simply says that it stopped raining.
    Job 37:18 is a key verse, which they proclaim points to a glass dome.  They did not have glass mirrors in Job’s day, so they beat metal into sheets and polished it, to be able to see their reflection.   The King James translators were describing a mirror, as they had glass in their days.  It’s simply pointing to the heavens which shine down on us, reflecting the glory of creation.  “Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?”
    Psalm 19:1 declares the glory of the stars in heaven. 
    Psalm 150:1 declares that we should praise the Creator of the starry heavens.
    Isaiah 40:22 declares that the Creator is sitting upon the circle of the Earth.  Is he actually sitting on the Earth?  No!  It is declaring that He is sitting in the heavens, in the tabernacle of stars which surround the Earth (as a tent), in the midst of the 12 constellations which are on the circular ecliptic (the circle of the Earth), which have proclaimed the redemption story since creation.
    Quote
    “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
    Ezekiel 1:22-26 is not describing the heavens that we see, with the sun and moon in it; but rather another expanse around the throne of our Creator.
    Ezekiel 10:1 Like Ezekiel 1, it is not describing the heavens that we see, with the sun and moon in it; but rather another expanse around the throne of our Creator.
    Daniel 12:3 The saints are portrayed as stars, which shine in the heaven of our Creator. 
    Sun Moves, not the Earth: Genesis 15:12, Genesis 15:17, Genesis 19:23, Genesis 32:31, Exodus 17:12, Exodus 22:3, Exodus 22:26, Leviticus 22:7, Numbers 2:3, Numbers 21:11, Numbers 34:15, Deuteronomy 4:41, Deuteronomy 4:47, Deuteronomy 11:30, Deuteronomy 16:6, Deuteronomy 23:11, Deuteronomy 24:13, Deuteronomy 24:15, Joshua 1:15, Joshua 8:29, Joshua 10:27, Joshua 12:1, Joshua 13:5, Joshua 19:12, Joshua 19:27, Joshua 19:34, Judges 8:13, Judges 9:33, Judges 14:18, Judges 19:14, Judges 20:43, 2 Samuel 2:24, 2 Samuel 3:35, 2 Samuel 23:4, 1 Kings 22:36, 2 Chronicles 18:34, Psalm 50:1, Psalm 113:3, Ecclesiastes 1:5, Isaiah 41:25, Isaiah 45:6, Isaiah 59:19, Jeremiah 15:9, Daniel 6:14, Amos 8:9, Jonah 4:8, Micah 3:6, Nahum 3:17, Malachi 1:11, Matthew 5:45, Mark 16:2, Ephesians 4:26, James 1:11
    All of these verses describe the sun rising up or going down.  Does the sun ever  ‘rise up’ or ‘go down’ on the flat Earth model?  No!  They proclaim that it moves in a circle above the flat surface; so the words rise up and goes down cannot apply to the flat Earth model sun.
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    “And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.” Genesis 15:12
    “And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.” Genesis 15:17
     
    “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles;” Malachi 1:11
    As for the sun moving and not the Earth, the same thing can be explained on a geocentric globe earth, so it doesn’t prove that the Earth is flat. 
    Sun STOPS moving: Isaiah 60:20, Job 9:7, Joshua 10:12-14, Habakkuk 3:11
    Quote
    The same thing could happen on a geocentric globe earth, so it doesn’t prove that the Earth is flat. 
    Sun moves BACKWARDS: 2 Kings 20:8-11
    Quote
    The same thing could happen on a geocentric globe earth, so it doesn’t prove that the Earth is flat. 
    Moon has its own Light: Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 30:26, Isaiah 60:19-20, Jeremiah 31:35, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, Ezekiel 32:7, Revelation 21:23
    Flat earthers have to dismiss that the sun illuminates the moon, because it causes problems on their flat earth model. The irony here is that they cannot explain how the moon illuminates itself, or how it displays the evolving phases.  
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    And we can clearly see the direct relationship of the New Moon being located near the setting sun; and for the next 14 days, the moon is 1/14th further away from the sun at sunset, and it is 1 1/4th more illuminated.  After 7 days, the waxing half moon is directly overhead at sunset. After 14 days, the full moon is rising in the East at sunset.  It’s not rocket science, the sun clearly illuminates the moon! 
    In each of these verses, the sun being dimmed, results in the moon also being dimmed; showing the direct relationship, as the sun illuminates the moon.  Just as the Sun of Righteousness, Messiah, illuminates us and shines through us.
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    Isaiah 13:10 is not speaking literally, but metaphorically of the leaders of the tribe of Judah, the High Priest (sun) and Sanhedrin (moon) being removed from power, as they incurred the anger and wrath of the Father.
    Isaiah 30:26 is not speaking literally, but is a hyperbolical expression, of the most glorious and comfortable condition of God’s church, far surpassing what it was in former ages. Messiah is our Sun of Righteousness, our High Priest; which is far superior to the Israelite High Priest.
    Isaiah 60:19-20 speaks of the day when the Father and Son will illuminate the New Jerusalem.
    Jeremiah 31:35 says that the moon and stars are given for lights at night. It does not say that the moon provides it’s own light.  Just like the stars, it reflects the sun light.
    Matthew 24:29 and Luke 13:24 are talking about the Jєωιѕн political leaders; the High Priest (Sun), the Sanhedrin (the moon) and the priest system (the stars); being removed from power (dimmed) in 70 A.D., when the Roman army desolated the temple, city and Jerusalem. Read The Sun, Moon And Stars
    Ezekiel 32:7 says that He will cover the sun and the moon will not give it’s light; so we see the direct relationship.  It did not say that He would cover the moon, just the sun.  And by covering the sun, the moon cannot reflect the light of the sun. 
    Revelation 21:23 simply says that there will be no need for the sun and moon to shine in New Jerusalem, as the Father and Son will illuminate it. It is not declaring that the moon had provided its own light.
    High Altitude Perspectives: Daniel 4:11, Daniel 4:20, Matthew 4:8
    Nathan thinks that a high altitude perspective proves that the Earth is flat; but the verses prove that is not true.
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    Daniel 4:22 declares that the giant tree of Daniel 4:11, 20; symbolizes king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, so it’s not talking about a real giant tree,“It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.”
    For Matthew 4:8, when Satan took Messiah to a high mountain and showed Him all of the kingdoms of the world; there is no mountain on Earth which can see all of the kingdoms of the world, so it doesn’t prove that the Earth is flat. 
    He was either pointing to that region of the Earth, Judea and the surrounding nations, which were controlled by the mighty Roman Empire.  Or he was able to give a kind of visionary representation of all of the nations of the Earth. 
    Everyone Sees Jesus: Revelation 1:7
    :See, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye shall see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth shall mourn because of Him. Yes, Amĕn.:
    Quote
    But that doesn’t prove the flat earth, because there is no place on the flat earth where Messiah could return, that every person in every country could see.   Can you see the sky over Jerusalem from where you live? No!
    New Jerusalem, the HUGE cube: Revelation 21:15-17
    The shape of New Jerusalem has nothing to do with the shape of the Earth. 
    “Breadth”, spread out FLAT, of the Earth: Revelation 20:9
    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    The Greek word for earth is ge, is not referring to the whole earth, but to the land of Jerusalem.
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    ge = which means: by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.
    Just as the city of Jerusalem is set up on a hill, the New Jerusalem will also be set up high.
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    The armies of the enemies will go up to Jerusalem, to seek to attack it.
    Matthews Bible from 1537 says “Flat Earth”: 2 Samuel 11:11
    The King James say ‘open fields’, “And Uriah said unto David, The ark, and Israel, and Judah, abide in tents; and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open fields; shall I then go into mine house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? as thou livest, and as thy soul liveth, I will not do this thing.”
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    The verse isn’t about the shape of the earth, but that they encamped on a flat area in the open fields.  The fact that it had to clarify that the area was flat, tells you that most of the land around it was not flat.
    Creation Worshippers: Deuteronomy 4:19, Deuteronomy 17:3, 2 Kings 23:5, Jeremiah 8:2
    The focus of the verses is about the pagan god worship of the sun, moon and stars.  Those heavenly bodies exist on the supposed flat earth model too, so those verses have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth.
    God’s Word is ALWAYS Faithful and True: Jeremiah 42:5, Revelation 3:14, Revelation 19:11, Revelation 21:5, Revelation 22:6
    Yes He is, but as you’ve seen, the verses that Nathan’s cited do not declare that the Earth is flat; so these verses don’t prove anything in regard to the shape of the Earth.
    Additional Resources: https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/



    Offline apollo

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #101 on: April 27, 2018, 11:50:03 AM »
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  • Here are 2 simple calculations which can determine the most sensible
    explanation of the Sun-Earth controversy (which one is in orbit).

    Question. What keeps the Sun in orbit around the Earth ?

    Does it have fins like a rocket that keep it turning in a circular direction?
    Does the gravitational pull of the Earth keep the Sun in orbit?  Like with
    the Moon?  Would the Sun go in a straight line if the Earth did not have
    gravity?

    The only feasible answer is: the gravity of the Earth.  I know about the
    pseudo forces that Robert Sungenis talks about.  But let's limit this discussion
    to what we can measure.

    OK then the Sun is 93,000,000 miles from Earth.  We can measure that.
    The Sun "orbits" the Earth in 24 hours.  

    So, 93,000,000 miles x 2 x 3.1416 / 24 hours = 24,347,400 miles per hour.
    The Sun is traveling about 24 million miles per hour.  

    Don't you think there would be a trail of fire following behind the Sun, like
    comets have a trail of some kind?

    If the Earth were orbiting the Sun ...
    93,000,000 miles x 2 x 3.1416 / 365 days / 24 hrs = 66,705 miles per hour.
    The Earth would be going 66,705 miles per hour.

    Which has more gravity?  The Sun.  Therefore it makes more sense that the
    Earth is orbiting the Sun.  It's total lunacy to think the Earth has enough
    gravity to keep the Sun (going 24 million MPH) in orbit around the Earth.  

    For the Moon ...
    252,000 miles (at most) x 2 x 3.1416 / 28 days / 24 hours = 2,356 MPH.

    If the Moon were going 24 million MPH, do you think it would still be orbiting
    the Earth?  No way.  It would be far away in outer space.  

    Then how could the Sun still be orbiting the Earth.  It would take some kind
    of astronomical force to keep it circling the Earth.  

    Conclusion.  Geocentrism only makes sense when you can find some kind of
    unbelievable force not understandable to humans.  Imagine how fast the
    nearest star is traveling ... faster than the speed of light.  

    I dare say that Geocentrism is a mere fantasy of people who try to make the
    Bible a science textbook, using a view of the universe which was popular in
    the time of David (in the old Testament), using vague terminology such as,
    "shall not be moved".  

    Like I said before, not many people's brain can function in the world of math
    and astronomy.  I don't mean to be condescending, but the arguments for
    Geocentrism really require a person to believe in magic.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #102 on: April 27, 2018, 11:52:40 AM »
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  • Well, this is one reason why spherical earth has gained ground.  People assume the earth is a globe.  Pope Sylvester II (Gerbert) was a flat earther evidenced in his description of this "hollow sphere", which represents the universe, not the earth.
    "Richer also revealed how Gerbert made the planets more easily observable in his armillary sphere:"
    "Furthermore, Gerbert instructed Constantine that the north pole could be measured with the upper and lower sighting tubes, the Arctic Circle through another tube, the Tropic of Cancer through another tube, the equator through another tube, and the Tropic of Capricorn through another tube.[29]"
    This proves beyond a doubt that such measurements are made with the line of sight.  This is impossible if earth were a globe.  
    Now, while an armillary sphere can be turned about is if to represent earth as a globe and is represented as such, it can also make the sun stationary when its mechanics are changed.  However, by design of the armillary sphere, its quite clear the sun is not at the center of the universe.  
    An armillary sphere (variations are known as spherical astrolabe, armilla, or armil) is a model of objects in the sky (on the celestial sphere).
    This instrument was designed to show why some stars cannot be seen on certain planes from certain positions, not to explain that earth is a globe.
    The Chinese are quite famous for being flat earthers from ancient times and they used the armillary sphere long before Pope Sylvester II.
    Throughout Chinese history, astronomers have created celestial globes (Chinese: 浑象) to assist the observation of the stars. The Chinese also used the armillary sphere in aiding calendrical computations and calculations.
    According to Needham, the earliest development of the armillary sphere in China goes back to the astronomers Shi Shen and Gan De in the 4th century BC, as they were equipped with a primitive single-ring armillary instrument.[3] This would have allowed them to measure the north polar distance (declination) a measurement that gave the position in a xiu (right ascension).[3] Needham's 4th century dating, however, is rejected by British sinologist Christopher Cullen, who traces the beginnings of these devices to the 1st century BC.[4]


    100% of Catholic authorities who taught anything about the shape of the earth taught earth is flat.

    Medieval Europe's foremost astronomical textbook:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_sphaera_mundi
    This book(written by a Catholic monk) which taught a SPHERICAL EARTH was written in 1230 and was used as a textbook in universities(which were, again, run by Catholic monks) for hundreds of years. Never were the universities told to stop using the book, never was the book banned, never did the Church contradict or condemn the book. Instead it taught it in its universities for hundreds of years.

    Saint Thomas also believed in a spherical earth and assumed the reader did too, remarking on how all the different types of professionals and educated had their own ways of observing the roundness of the earth. In Summa Theologiae he wrote: "The physicist proves the earth to be round by one means, the astronomer by another: for the latter proves this by means of mathematics, e. g. by the shapes of eclipses, or something of the sort; while the former proves it by means of physics, e. g. by the movement of heavy bodies towards the center, and so forth."

    It's clear from St. Thomas' writings that the globe earth the predominant view, and he never mentions the flat earth once. If, as you say, the Church taught a flat earth, then why did St. Thomas never mention it? Why did he spread "heretical" views about a globe earth if the Church actually taught a flat earth? Are you calling St. Thomas a heretic?

    We also have Gautier de Metz from the 1200s happily teaching a globe earth, seemingly unaware of Happenby's exclusive knowledge that the Church taught a flat earth:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautier_de_Metz

    If we go back about a century further to the 1100s we see Blessed Hildegaard teaching a globe earth:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Hildegard_von_Bingen-_%27Werk_Gottes%27%2C_12._Jh..jpg/220px-Hildegard_von_Bingen-_%27Werk_Gottes%27%2C_12._Jh..jpg

    And again, in the condemnation of Galileo, his beliefs in a globe earth are never mentioned or condemned. They surely would have been if the Church believed in a flat earth.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #103 on: April 27, 2018, 11:57:35 AM »
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  • You were the first one to go off on that tangent, bub. And you've proven exactly nothing. I've given examples of Popes that believed in a glob earth, I've verified that all Catholic universities and educated Catholics in the middle ages believed in the globe earth, and I've also shown you how St. Bellarmine's condemnation of Galileo NEVER mentioned Galileo's belief in a globe earth, AND I've shown you that Bellarmine believed in the Ptolemaic globe earth model as shown by his mentions of epicycles which only existed in that model.
    Indeed no Pope ever issued a docuмent stating "one must believe in a globe earth" but they never did that for a flat earth either, so the point is entirely moot.

    You've given no examples at all of the popes teaching that the earth is a globe. You seem to have difficulty sticking with the subject at hand. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: "The Heliocentric Hoax" (by Fr. Robinson's stepfather)
    « Reply #104 on: April 27, 2018, 12:02:41 PM »
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  • the arguments for Geocentrism really require a person to believe in magic.

    Wow!  What an amazing find!  May we quote you on that?

    I guess a whole lot of pre-Vatican II saints were magicians.  I wonder if they even realized they were.  Maybe the devil just tricked them into it without their knowing it. 

    (The тαℓмυd, the Jew's greatest holy book informs us that Jesus was a magician.)