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Author Topic: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash  (Read 10333 times)

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Offline AlligatorDicax

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Another Topic!?/Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2018, 11:31:28 AM »
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  • I'll start a new thread.  I have been sitting on some quotes from Saint and Doctor, St. John Damascene.  It's fairly relevant to your assertion above.

    As of yesterday ca. noon (EDT), there were already 205 topics here in this flattist ghetto.

    I beg you to please consider whether this flattist ghetto needs yet another topic.  Yet another topic here which, no matter how carefully you attempt to focus its discussion/debates by creating it with a clearly phrased Subject [], will most likely collapse into yet another free-for-all ignoring that Subject, and shovelling in so much of the flattist [expletives deleted] that've caused readers' eyes to glaze over, again & again.  Meanwhile, new discussion/debates that are dead-center on-topic will be posted into other practically random topic.  Which will stimulate spherist responses that were already adequate rebuttals in whatever topics they were initially posted, but where they were of course rejected on axiomatic grounds a priori by the flattists [×].

    I don't intend herein to pick on any CathInfo member in particular, but I can't overlook such a well-timed hook for my protest.  It does apply to all members.  So yes, I was already exasperated with 'Neil Obstat' when he started this very topic earlier this week.

    -------
    Note †: E.g., The highly relevant topic on the 1893 encyclical letter by Pope Leo XIII: Proventissimus Deus.  An encyclical whose meaning is still being debated late this week, but the tightly-focused topic has fallen thro' lack of use (i.e., not since "February 11, 2018, 23:52:36 (CDT)") to near the bottom of this subforum's index-page 4.

    Note ×: E.g., "Why can't you globists show me even 1 convincing photo of your 'blue-marble' globe?  Oh!  But of course, I refuse (a priori) to accept any images from any national or supranational space agencies, because they are all demonic."


    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #76 on: May 11, 2018, 11:43:27 AM »
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  • Can you give an opinion from a Catholic authority (Saints, Doctors, magisterial sources) any time after 700 that suggests that the earth is flat?

    Genuine Catholic opinions persist throughout time.  They do not disappear for a thousand years and then get revived by heretics and promoted by pagans.  Pointing that out is not spin.  
    A possible non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire. It is attested from the time of the Christian late-Roman emperor Theodosius II (423) throughout the Middle Ages; the Reichsapfel was used in 1191 at the coronation of emperor Henry VI. However the word 'orbis' means 'circle' and there is no record of a globe as a representation of the Earth since ancient times in the west till that of Martin Behaim in 1492. Additionally it could well be a representation of the entire 'world' or cosmos.


    The Fathers had already spoken and the pagans were silenced for centuries.  As seen in Wiki above.  Some truths are held back for generations because they don't apply, but not because they aren't true.          


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #77 on: May 11, 2018, 12:11:20 PM »
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  • So genuine Catholic opinion still exists in the church as it is today?

    Has it really persisted through today? You don't believe that Truth has been eclipsed or distorted by modernism?
    The belief that underlies pretty much every variation of traditional Catholicism that appears on this forum is that we are able to identify when Truth has been distorted my modernism by looking at the Tradition (and tradition) of the Church as it has persisted through time.  Genuine Catholic opinion still exists among those of us who seek it out.

    The people who try to introduce new ideas and practices into Catholicism on the basis that they existed in the early Church are guilty of archeologism. 

    Quote
    Archaeologism is not so much a heresy as a trend, a certain approach to Catholic liturgy and practice. Its distinguishing characteristic is an excessive value placed on those Catholic practices which came earlier in historical-chronological succession. For the archaeologist, first is always best. A practice or prayer of the patristic Church is "better" or "purer" than a practice of the medieval Church. 

    http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/theology/81-theology/364-archaeologism.html
    I think that everyone here is aware of how destructive this trend has been to the Church in recent centuries.  If not, read the article which is the source of the quote.  tl;dr It was a major influence on Vatican II.

    To rely on a patristic interpretation of Scripture (that did not even have acceptance from all of the Fathers) while ignoring that it disappeared from Catholicism for over a thousand years is an example of archeologism.   

    There is a reason that the belief in flat earth disappeared and it wasn't pagans, Copernicus or Freemasons.  It is because our ancestors in the Faith discerned that spherical earth was true.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #78 on: May 11, 2018, 12:15:25 PM »
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  • A possible non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire. It is attested from the time of the Christian late-Roman emperor Theodosius II (423) throughout the Middle Ages; the Reichsapfel was used in 1191 at the coronation of emperor Henry VI. However the word 'orbis' means 'circle' and there is no record of a globe as a representation of the Earth since ancient times in the west till that of Martin Behaim in 1492. Additionally it could well be a representation of the entire 'world' or cosmos.


    The Fathers had already spoken and the pagans were silenced for centuries.  As seen in Wiki above.  Some truths are held back for generations because they don't apply, but not because they aren't true.          
    How is any of this an answer to my question?  I asked if you could cite a Catholic authority teaching that the earth is flat after 700 AD.  I'll take your answer above as a "no".

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #79 on: May 11, 2018, 12:16:02 PM »
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  • There is a reason that the belief in flat earth disappeared and it wasn't pagans, Copernicus or Freemasons.  It is because our ancestors in the Faith discerned that spherical earth was true.
    Prove it.  You continue to make assertions that you cannot prove.  Until you do, this (above), and the rest of your assertions are dismissed and your persistent contradiction of the Fathers and Scripture have been duly noted. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #80 on: May 11, 2018, 12:21:34 PM »
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  • How is any of this an answer to my question?  I asked if you could cite a Catholic authority teaching that the earth is flat after 700 AD.  I'll your answer above as a "no".
    As I've told you before, I'm not willing to continue to feed you information directly because you're hell bent on your spin. However, in the spirit of what you asked, I pose a similar question to you: Can you cite a Catholic authority that teaches earth is a globe in any age? 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #81 on: May 11, 2018, 12:30:47 PM »
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  • Prove it.  You continue to make assertions that you cannot prove.  Until you do, this (above), and the rest of your assertions are dismissed and your persistent contradiction of the Fathers and Scripture have been duly noted.
    I have proven it.  Everybody but the handful of flat earthers here can tell that I have provided ample support for all my assertions.  It is obvious that you will dismiss them no matter what proof I offer.

    As I've told you before, I'm not willing to continue to feed you information directly because you're hell bent on your spin. However, in the spirit of what you asked, I pose a similar question to you: Can you cite a Catholic authority that teaches earth is a globe in any age?  
    Yes, and I have already done so.  I have posted quotes from Fathers, from St. Bede, from St. Thomas Aquinas. I have demonstrated that virtually everything written against Galileo,etc was, in effect, support of traditional (spherical earth) geocentrism.  There is no reason for me to post the same quotes and arguments over and over again for those who are determined to dismiss them.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #82 on: May 11, 2018, 12:40:44 PM »
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  • I have proven it.  Everybody but the handful of flat earthers here can tell that I have provided ample support for all my assertions. 

    "Everybody but a handful of flat earthers here can tell that I have provided ample support for my assertions."

    You have provided ample support for your OPINIONS. They are only opinions. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #83 on: May 11, 2018, 12:54:21 PM »
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  • I have proven it.  Everybody but the handful of flat earthers here can tell that I have provided ample support for all my assertions.  

    You have provided ample support to prove your globe earth assertions false. Well done! ;D  :popcorn:
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #84 on: May 11, 2018, 01:09:27 PM »
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  • I have proven it.  Everybody but the handful of flat earthers here can tell that I have provided ample support for all my assertions.  It is obvious that you will dismiss them no matter what proof I offer.
    Yes, and I have already done so.  I have posted quotes from Fathers, from St. Bede, from St. Thomas Aquinas. I have demonstrated that virtually everything written against Galileo,etc was, in effect, support of traditional (spherical earth) geocentrism.  There is no reason for me to post the same quotes and arguments over and over again for those who are determined to dismiss them.
    You haven't proven anything of the kind.  I've re-presented quotes over and over because sometimes, they don't sink in for some people.  You made a claim above, so provide quotes in favor of spherical earth by Fathers and Saints, or don't make your claim. Extrapolating is all too common and since you're wont to do such, you'll have to defend your quote reasonably, and we'll see if it says what you claim.  We've already determined as a group that up until now, no one has produced Catholic teachings that support earth is a globe.  If we're wrong about that, prove it. The Galileo trial condemns heliocentrism but it doesn't support spheres of any kind. Even the Tychonian system didn't actually intend to teach about spherical bodies.  As a contemporary scientist preceding the Galileo Affair, Tycho, having written this himself, it cannot be certain anyone at that time took the spherical earth seriously: 


    “There really are not any spheres in the heavens… Those of which have been devised by the experts to save the appearances exist only in the imagination, for the purpose of enabling the mind to conceive the motion which the heavenly bodies trace in their course and, by the aid of geometry, to determine the motion numerically through the use of arithmetic.”

    -Tycho Brahe, On the Most Recent Phenomena of the Aetherial World, 1588

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #85 on: May 11, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »
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  • Happenby, I have explained how you are misunderstanding that Tycho Brahe quote, just like I've explained all the other things you get wrong, just like I have already produced extensive docuмentation for all that I have claimed.  There is no reason why I should waste my time on producing these things again and again for you, merely for you to say "but that isn't proof" and make some excuse to ignore it. You may reread my old posts if you really want to see it.

    If there is anybody new to this issue who wants to know about these things, let me know.  I will find my earlier posts or explain it again for you.  


    Offline Meg

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #86 on: May 11, 2018, 02:23:42 PM »
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  • As I've told you before, I'm not willing to continue to feed you information directly because you're hell bent on your spin. However, in the spirit of what you asked, I pose a similar question to you: Can you cite a Catholic authority that teaches earth is a globe in any age?

    You asked for a citation from a Catholic authority that teaches that the earth is a globe. So far, that citation has not been provided. Which makes sense, considering that the Church does not teach that the earth is a globe.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #87 on: May 11, 2018, 02:39:25 PM »
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  • Happenby, I have explained how you are misunderstanding that Tycho Brahe quote, just like I've explained all the other things you get wrong, just like I have already produced extensive docuмentation for all that I have claimed.  There is no reason why I should waste my time on producing these things again and again for you, merely for you to say "but that isn't proof" and make some excuse to ignore it. You may reread my old posts if you really want to see it.

    If there is anybody new to this issue who wants to know about these things, let me know.  I will find my earlier posts or explain it again for you.  
    I can read.  I don't need your spin.  Every time you post you qualify it with some twisted idea to escape the obvious.  You've actually said that Thomas Aquinas was your proof that earth is a globe when he didn't teach it at all.  He mentioned it.  Period.  He taught nothing about it, never compared it to Scripture, never expounded on it using the Fathers. You have continued to say that you proved the Church supported the globe earth, but failed in every way to show She did.  Certainly not at the Galileo Affair, which you assert. Conversely, I've shown multiple Fathers and multiple Scripture quotes for claims that the Church supports, even teaches flat earth.  Not to mention dozens of proofs from math and science.  All you can do is parrot the pagan scientists, begging the question, obsess over which model had the greatest number of proponents and miss answering the posts you dare not address.  Your argument collapsed weeks ago, but I will be happy to slice and dice ad infinitum. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #88 on: May 11, 2018, 02:53:57 PM »
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  • You asked for a citation from a Catholic authority that teaches that the earth is a globe. So far, that citation has not been provided. Which makes sense, considering that the Church does not teach that the earth is a globe.
    I explicitly defined Catholic authority as including Saints and Doctors of the Church.  It is perfectly possible to have statements from such even when there is no magisterial teaching (which is normally what is meant by "Church teaching").

    And, in fact, this is the case with the question of globe earth.  There is no magisterial teaching explicitly saying the earth is a globe.  There are many Saints and Doctors who believed or taught that earth is a globe.  This is only to be expected of the predominant position throughout Catholic history.  I have provided quotes from a small proportion of the total number possible, but enough to support what I have claimed.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #89 on: May 11, 2018, 03:04:50 PM »
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  • I explicitly defined Catholic authority as including Saints and Doctors of the Church.  It is perfectly possible to have statements from such even when there is no magisterial teaching (which is normally what is meant by "Church teaching").

    And, in fact, this is the case with the question of globe earth.  There is no magisterial teaching explicitly saying the earth is a globe.  There are many Saints and Doctors who believed or taught that earth is a globe.  This is only to be expected of the predominant position throughout Catholic history.  I have provided quotes from a small proportion of the total number possible, but enough to support what I have claimed.
    Again, do show us the many Saints and Doctors who taught earth is a globe.