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Author Topic: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash  (Read 101760 times)

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Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2018, 09:42:45 AM »
I was not talking about the FE's on this forum. I am talking about the people behind this movement. I worded it wrong. I refer to the people on this forum as Dogmatic Flatearthists because they have been duped into thinking it's a Dogma.
The FE's behind this movement are enemies of the faith. They know the world will look at this opinion as "crazy". The devil knows that to introduce this as being a doctrine, not only will it discredit the faith but it has the added bonus of a schism. There is no doubt that a lot of people on this forum believe this is necessary and that others who believe in GE have no hope of salvation unless they convert to FE, whether they say it like that or not.
That makes sense when I think of dodgy people like influential flat-earther, Eric Dubay.  I know he is an enemy of the faith. It is plausible that they want to dupe Catholics into accepting flat earth in order to harm the Church.

I agree that, while few of the FEs here explicitly say that Flat earth is a dogma, many of them seem to constantly imply or suggest it.

Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2018, 09:44:03 AM »
There's more detail in those views (that's similar in all their models) than can be attributed to naive naked-eye observations.
Could you give some examples, please?  I can't think of anything that supports this claim.


Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2018, 09:47:07 AM »
Fair enough. I just didn't want those undecided who may be reading to be persuaded by the FE movement's exaggeration of FE belief among the Fathers.
I tend to agree with these opinions, since it hasn't been decided by the Church.

St. Augustine, The literal meaning of Genesis: "It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial."

St. Basil, Hexaemeron: “Those who have written about the nature of the universe have discussed at length the shape of the earth… It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes…He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.”

I would also like to add that if one were to try to draw the flat Earth interpretation from Scripture, one would run into different contradictions. I've mentioned these before in previous threads.

LEO XIII: “Wherefore, it is clear that that interpretation must be rejected as senseless and false, which either makes inspired authors in some manner quarrel among themselves, or opposes the teaching of the Church. . . .”
This is an attempt that makes the inspired authors in some manner quarrel among themselves, or oppose the teaching of the Church.  No where do the Fathers teach globe earth.  No where does Scripture describe a globe.   

Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2018, 09:49:42 AM »
Firmament is an interpretive translation of a Hebrew word that means "expanse".

Greeks came up with the spherical earth notion, but ancient peoples before that all held a flat earth world view.  I do not dismiss it lightly when lots of ancient cultures scattered around the world and having little contact with one another happen to come up with a nearly-identical world view.  No, it's not proof of anything, but something to be weighed in the discussion as being of some significance.
Sorry, tried, but cannot make the font smaller.


Origen
called the firmament "without doubt firm and solid" (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71).

St. Ambrose, commenting on Gen 1:6, said, 'the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant' (Hexameron, FC 42.60).

St. Augustine said the word firmament was used 'to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the waters below' (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61)." - p. 236

Saint Basil: “Now we must say something about the nature of the firmament, and why it received the order to hold the middle place between the waters. Scripture constantly makes use of the word firmament to express extraordinary strength....‘I made firm her pillars [Ps. 75:3].’ ‘Praise ye Him in the firmament of His power [Ps. 150:1].’ It is the custom of Scripture to call firmament all that is strong and unyielding. It even uses the word to denote the condensation of the air. God says, ‘For, behold, I am He that strengthens the thunder [Amos 4:13].’ Scripture means by the strengthening of the thunder, the strength and resistance of the wind, which, enclosed in the hollows of the clouds, produces the noise of thunder when it breaks through with violence. Here then, according to me, is a firm substance, capable of retaining the fluid and unstable element water; and as, according to the common acceptation, it appears that the firmament owes its origin to water, we must not believe that it resembles frozen water or any other matter produced by the filtration of water. For I am taught by Scripture not to allow my imagination to wander too far afield. But do not let us forget to remark that, after these divine words, ‘Let there be a firmament [Gen. 1:6],’ it is not said ‘and the firmament was made’ but, ‘God made the firmament, and God divided between the water that was under the firmament and between the water that was above the firmament [Gen. 1:7].’.  Saint Basil, “Hom. III(9),” Hexaemeron, NPNF, 2nd Ser., Vol. VIII.

Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2018, 09:57:27 AM »
There are few that one can point to it being their opinion. Lactantius is the only one which claims it's a matter of faith. St. Basil and St. Augustine explicitly say this topic is not in Scripture and is not worthy of serious thought. No one's saying they were ignorant. The ones who did hold the FE opinion seemed to hold it not as a matter of faith, but as the common opinion where they were. Like I said though, there weren't that many who wrote about it.
The only reason it's debatable is because the FE's are trying to destroy all credibility of the Church, so they try to tie it into the Catholic Faith. They get Catholics to believe in it by exaggerating the importance among the Fathers and twisting Scripture to attempt to make it a religious matter. There's a reason why this subject was not brought up for about 1500 years.
Augustine says many things about the flat earth, including the quotes provided above about the firmament.  The intended purpose of bringing flat earth up time and again is to get people to take seriously the subject and dig up docuмents for full evaluation, do experiments, study the subject with an open mind.  There is a trend in the Church and it doesn't favor the globe pretty much ever.  For those who insist on calling me and others "dogmatic flat earthers", your attempts to discourage discussion, thwart the words and intentions of the Fathers, and otherwise use categorical commentary to denounce people shows contempt for no reason.