Author Topic: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash  (Read 5688 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2018, 06:06:35 AM »
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  • Like most ancient peoples, the Hebrews believed the sky was a solid dome with the Sun, Moon, planets and stars embedded in it

    The Copernican Revolution of the 16th century led to reconsideration of these matters. In 1554, John Calvin proposed that "firmament" be interpreted as clouds.[12] "He who would learn astronomy and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere," wrote Calvin.[12] "As it became a theologian, [Moses] had to respect us rather than the stars," Calvin wrote. Calvin's doctrine of accommodation allowed Protestants to accept the findings of science without rejecting the authority of scripture.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament


    In 1584, Giordano Bruno proposed a cosmology without firmament: an infinite universe in which the stars are actually suns with their own planetary systems.[16] After Galileo began using a telescope to examine the sky, it became harder to argue that the heavens were perfect, as Aristotelian philosophy required. By 1630, the concept of solid orbs was no longer dominant.[17]
    In the same article you quote above, you will find:  

    The Greeks and Stoics adopted a model of celestial spheres after the discovery of the spherical Earthin the 4th to 3rd centuries BCE. The Medieval Scholastics adopted a cosmology that fused the ideas of the Greek philosophers Aristotle and Ptolemy.[14] This cosmology involved celestial orbs, nested concentrically inside one another, with the earth at the center. The outermost orb contained the stars and the term firmament was then transferred to this orb. 

    Note the last phrase:  "the term firmament was then transferred to this orb".  The word "firmament" changed its meaning to fit in with the traditional (spherical earth) geocentrism that was the consensus of Catholics for over a thousand years.  The use of the word "firmament" in the 16th century refers to this traditional Catholic sense.  It does not mean that anybody then believed the earth was flat with a dome over it.

    While your partial quotes give an impression that the article disagrees with me, it is clear enough when one reads the whole thing that it supports what I have said.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #46 on: May 11, 2018, 06:07:58 AM »
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  • Anyone with surveying experience knows this intuitively, ...

    See, you keep saying stuff like this.  I am in search of scientific proof and not false assertions like this.  INTUITIVELY it looks like a boat is disappearing over the horizon.  But then you zoom in with a camera and can see the entire thing.  Visual observation is not proof.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #47 on: May 11, 2018, 06:11:21 AM »
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  • .
    Since no one has managed to respond to the OP after 3 pages (while pretending to have responded) I'll post it again, with more material:
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    Anybody who gives the flat earth idea the slightest amount of critical examination will realize that it's complete balderdash.  
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    For at least some, their ignorance is willful and impudent, therefore quite repulsive.
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    I have responded several times to the OP, that visual phenomenon does not prove globe earth.

    And this here is an example of your obvious emotional attachment to the issue which makes it difficult to accept you as an unbiased source of factual information.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #48 on: May 11, 2018, 07:33:36 AM »
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  • .
    "The math formula" is not applied correctly by flat-earthers. That's the point.
    It's not perfect but it's close enough. Ballers think level means curved when it's convenient to their argument.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #49 on: May 11, 2018, 07:34:54 AM »
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  • This cracks me up. No one said it's necessary but holding to globe earth won't save you? LOL! This contradictory and unproven theory, as you call it, is the globe earth theory correct? The enemy is the Devil correct? Globe Earth is of the Devil according to you. You are saying this won't save a person who holds this opinion. There is no difference between either way of expressing it. You are a Dogmatic Flatearthist. You believe FE is a necessary aspect of faith. The way you just tried to hide it is silly.
    Wow, it went way over your head didn't it!


    Offline aryzia

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #50 on: May 11, 2018, 07:37:36 AM »
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  • Like I just pointed out to Aryzia, she holds it to be a necessary article of faith, even though she tried to shroud it in ambiguity. Since there is no Church teaching which defines or even mentions FE, to say someone will not be saved or is not Catholic for not believing in it, is Schismatic.
    Wrong.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #51 on: May 11, 2018, 07:45:28 AM »
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  • It only has Biblical roots if you don't understand allegory and you are trying to distort Scripture.

    That's debatable.  Quite a few Church Fathers read the Bible as promoting a flat earth world view.  They cannot be dismissed as being ignorant.

    I could see either case being made, but I also would not rule out the Flat Earth view.  Scripture is to be taken literally unless it's obvious that a passage is metaphorical or allegorical.

    But the Church has never officially taught flat earth OR globe earth, so this is a disputed question.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #52 on: May 11, 2018, 07:50:29 AM »
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  • In the same article you quote above, you will find:  

    The Greeks and Stoics adopted a model of celestial spheres after the discovery of the spherical Earthin the 4th to 3rd centuries BCE. The Medieval Scholastics adopted a cosmology that fused the ideas of the Greek philosophers Aristotle and Ptolemy.[14] This cosmology involved celestial orbs, nested concentrically inside one another, with the earth at the center. The outermost orb contained the stars and the term firmament was then transferred to this orb.

    Note the last phrase:  "the term firmament was then transferred to this orb".  The word "firmament" changed its meaning to fit in with the traditional (spherical earth) geocentrism that was the consensus of Catholics for over a thousand years.  The use of the word "firmament" in the 16th century refers to this traditional Catholic sense.  It does not mean that anybody then believed the earth was flat with a dome over it.

    While your partial quotes give an impression that the article disagrees with me, it is clear enough when one reads the whole thing that it supports what I have said.

    Firmament is an interpretive translation of a Hebrew word that means "expanse".

    Greeks came up with the spherical earth notion, but ancient peoples before that all held a flat earth world view.  I do not dismiss it lightly when lots of ancient cultures scattered around the world and having little contact with one another happen to come up with a nearly-identical world view.  No, it's not proof of anything, but something to be weighed in the discussion as being of some significance.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #53 on: May 11, 2018, 08:38:14 AM »
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  • The only reason it's debatable is because the FE's are trying to destroy all credibility of the Church, so they try to tie it into the Catholic Faith. 
    I don't think this is a fair way to express it, although I agree with your overall analysis of the situation. The way you put sounds like they intend to harm the Church.  It is unlikely that the Flat Earthers on this forum deliberately intend this, no matter how obvious this is to us as the consequence of their actions.  

    These people seem to have convinced themselves that somehow they are defending the Church from her enemies.  You and I think they are completely wrong about this, but I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to their motives.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #54 on: May 11, 2018, 08:55:20 AM »
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  • Greeks came up with the spherical earth notion, but ancient peoples before that all held a flat earth world view.  I do not dismiss it lightly when lots of ancient cultures scattered around the world and having little contact with one another happen to come up with a nearly-identical world view.  No, it's not proof of anything, but something to be weighed in the discussion as being of some significance.
    The "significance" of the views of ancient pagans is that they are evidence that people's immediate perceptions seem to show the earth is flat.  One needs to reason from observed phenomena to deduce that it is a sphere.  One may debate the observations or the reasoning, but even the most ardent supporter of spherical earth knows that it is not immediately perceived by the senses.  All you are doing is finding evidence for a point that nobody would disagree with.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #55 on: May 11, 2018, 09:16:16 AM »
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  • There are few that one can point to it being their opinion. Lactantius is the only one which claims it's a matter of faith. St. Basil and St. Augustine explicitly say this topic is not in Scripture and is not worthy of serious thought. No one's saying they were ignorant. The ones who did hold the FE opinion seemed to hold it not as a matter of faith, but as the common opinion where they were. Like I said though, there weren't that many who wrote about it.
    The only reason it's debatable is because the FE's are trying to destroy all credibility of the Church, so they try to tie it into the Catholic Faith. They get Catholics to believe in it by exaggerating the importance among the Fathers and twisting Scripture to attempt to make it a religious matter. There's a reason why this subject was not brought up for about 1500 years.

    I was just saying that the Fathers who did see the Bible as teaching Flat Earth were not ignorant ... and the Bible CAN credibly be interpreted that way.  At no point have I said that it's de fide or otherwise indisputable.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #56 on: May 11, 2018, 09:17:45 AM »
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  • The "significance" of the views of ancient pagans is that they are evidence that people's immediate perceptions seem to show the earth is flat.

    There's more detail in those views (that's similar in all their models) than can be attributed to naive naked-eye observations.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #57 on: May 11, 2018, 09:33:09 AM »
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  • At the end of the day, I want to know the truth about this matter, but instead of real experiments that prove their thesis, you get a lot of rhetoric and false evidence (interpreted to support their theory due to simple confirmation bias).  Perhaps the globe earthers don't go out of their way to prove this because they assume that it's true and doesn't need proof.  So they do a lot of "it's just clear to anyone who has eyes" type of stuff ... that I find decidedly unconvincing.
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    IF "at the end of the day" you want to know the truth, then what do you have to say about the following objective test?
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    The little blue arrows are independent observations of which direction an observer looks from his location into the sky to see the sun.
    .

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    I won't be surprised if Ladislaus conveniently ignores this question.
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    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #58 on: May 11, 2018, 09:40:29 AM »
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  • It only has Biblical roots if you don't understand allegory and you are trying to distort Scripture.
    You are spreading false information in suggesting that Scripture is allegorical as if the literal sense does not take precedence. 
    Scripture must always be interpreted in the literal unless proven otherwise.  Globe earth has not been proven.  And the Fathers who taught about the form of the earth, taught flat earth.
    Providenssimus Deus says:
    A wide field is still left open to the private student, in which his hermeneutical skill may display itself with signal effect and to the advantage of the Church. On the one hand, in those passages of Holy Scripture which have not as yet received a certain and definitive interpretation, such labors may, in the benignant providence of God, prepare for and bring to maturity the judgment of the Church; on the other, in passages already defined, the private student may do work equally valuable, either by setting them forth more clearly to the flock and more skillfully to scholars, or by defending them more powerfully from hostile attack.


     The Holy Fathers β€œto whom, after the Apostles, the Church owes its growth β€” who have planted, watered, built, governed, and cherished it,”39 the Holy Fathers, We say, are of supreme authority, whenever they all interpret in one and the same manner any text of the Bible, as pertaining to the doctrine of faith or morals; for their unanimity clearly evinces that such interpretation has come down from the Apostles as a matter of Catholic faith. The opinion of the Fathers is also of very great weight when they treat of these matters in their capacity of doctors, unofficially; not only because they excel in their knowledge of revealed doctrine and in their acquaintance with many things which are useful in understanding the apostolic Books, but because they are men of eminent sanctity and of ardent zeal for the truth, on whom God has bestowed a more ample measure of His light. Wherefore the expositor should make it his duty to follow their footsteps with all reverence, and to use their labors with intelligent appreciation.

     But he must not on that account consider that it is forbidden, when just cause exists, to push inquiry and exposition beyond what the Fathers have done; provided he carefully observes the rule so wisely laid down by St. Augustine β€” not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires

    Offline happenby

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    Re: "Flat" Earth -- Complete Balderdash
    « Reply #59 on: May 11, 2018, 09:42:10 AM »
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  • I was just saying that the Fathers who did see the Bible as teaching Flat Earth were not ignorant ... and the Bible CAN credibly be interpreted that way.  At no point have I said that it's de fide or otherwise indisputable.
    Equally true is that Scripture CANNOT be credibly interpreted as describing earth is a globe. 


     

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