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Author Topic: TEOTWAWKI WROL Morality  (Read 2122 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2019, 02:37:44 PM »
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    I quite clearly understand this, so are you saying that in this scenario,
    Which scenario - the husband with a family or the single guy with nothing to lose?  Two vastly different moral scenarios.
    .
    However, I would argue that even if there was a "lone wolf" single guy out there who came across a distressed lady/child, it depends on the # of criminals and his skills on whether he should risk his life to help.  I said "should" because one is not allowed to put themselves in danger of death, except for extreme circuмstances.  If you enter a fight you know you can't win (assuming you don't have a duty to be in the fight), then I think that would be morally wrong.  False courage is not a virtue and God does not require the impossible.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #16 on: June 30, 2019, 02:48:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 30, 2019, 10:36:17 AM
    So you throw a rock at them just so you can pretend you're doing something?  In doing so, you reveal your position and expose your family to slaughter.  But, hey, you threw a rock.  If on the other hand you did happen to have "a machine gun", and therefore a good/reasonable chance of saving the person without jeopardizing your family, then of course you would intervene.

    Here's where it gets very blurry.  I have a weapon and think I have about a 90% chance of success.  But if that 10% comes about, then I've just killed my family.  That's a real tough one.  I would think that your obligation to protect your family comes first.  You are the head of your family and are duty-bound to protect them moreso than you are to protect a stranger.  As Matthew said, this was a big part of the OP's scenario.  Now, if you're a loner, then absolutely I agree with you, that if you have ANY halfway realistic chance of saving the person, you would be duty bound to try ... even at risk of your own life.  But that is not OP's scenario.
    Excellent post! I’ll add another factor into the scenario, what if the woman being chased was covered in tattoos and piercings? What is she had a rainbow flag shirt?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #17 on: June 30, 2019, 03:33:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 30, 2019, 02:37:44 PM
    Which scenario - the husband with a family or the single guy with nothing to lose?  Two vastly different moral scenarios.Start with the OP scenario:
    OP Said: "Hidden in a field above my bunker, I spot a woman and child being pursued by a gang of men who, if they capture them (which seems imminent), will rape, murder, and eat them".

    He makes no mention of, and says nothing of concern for any wife or children, so go with "the single guy with nothing to lose" (except his life) first. Who said anything about a wife and children any way?



    Quote
    However, I would argue that even if there was a "lone wolf" single guy out there who came across a distressed lady/child, it depends on the # of criminals and his skills on whether he should risk his life to help.  I said "should" because one is not allowed to put themselves in danger of death, except for extreme circuмstances.  If you enter a fight you know you can't win (assuming you don't have a duty to be in the fight), then I think that would be morally wrong.  False courage is not a virtue and God does not require the impossible.

    Make the number of criminals, "the gang", 5 or 6.  

    Certainly, there is much left out of the scenario. Are the woman/child faithful Catholics? Is the guy in the bunker married with children? If any, what weapons does he / the gang have? Are they being chased in a subdivision, desert, woods or ? How many are chasing them? and on and on.

    He did not ask "what to do?", he asked, "What is the Catholic thing to do?" Which of course, obviously it'd be plain stupid to stand in front of a tank, or to think it worth trying to help if 50 raving, drooling gang members are almost on her and the child.

    For me, I imagined it to be at least a somewhat workable scenario. In which case, the Catholic should at least do something to help them escape - because *that* would be the Catholic thing to do.  





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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #18 on: June 30, 2019, 03:44:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 30, 2019, 02:48:53 PM
    Excellent post! I’ll add another factor into the scenario, what if the woman being chased was covered in tattoos and piercings? What is she had a rainbow flag shirt?
    If you could get yourself one of these weapons, (see video) it would definitely give you a leg up to try to rescue said female.
    My honest opinion is that whether you engage the enemy or not, the woman will die. Dead after torture and rape. Dead through crossfire.
    Dead because one of the mob, being a feral beast, decides she aint worth it.
    If said female survives the firefight, hopefully a lop-sided one on our favour, she will be informed that things are now operating under a new law (God's Law, Church Law - and the laws that flow from it. i.e. Sodomy et all punishable by death) she has an option whether to straighten out or else she can go back into the world and try her chances once again.
    Prudence and charity cannot be divorced from one another here.
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #19 on: June 30, 2019, 03:48:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on June 30, 2019, 03:33:17 PM


    Make the number of criminals, "the gang", 5 or 6.  
    Properly armed and trained (which ALL TradCat men should aim for, no pun intended) then it will be easier to shoot and kill the 5.
    Then the female survivors et al.......see my previous post.
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    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #20 on: June 30, 2019, 03:53:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on June 30, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
    If you could get yourself one of these weapons, (see video) it would definitely give you a leg up to try to rescue said female.
    My honest opinion is that whether you engage the enemy or not, the woman will die. Dead after torture and rape. Dead through crossfire.
    Dead because one of the mob, being a feral beast, decides she aint worth it.
    If said female survives the firefight, hopefully a lop-sided one on our favour, she will be informed that things are now operating under a new law (God's Law, Church Law - and the laws that flow from it. i.e. Sodomy et all punishable by death) she has an option whether to straighten out or else she can go back into the world and try her chances once again.
    Prudence and charity cannot be divorced from one another here.

    That is one amazing gun!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #21 on: June 30, 2019, 04:28:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on June 30, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
    If you could get yourself one of these weapons, (see video) it would definitely give you a leg up to try to rescue said female.
    My honest opinion is that whether you engage the enemy or not, the woman will die. Dead after torture and rape. Dead through crossfire.
    Dead because one of the mob, being a feral beast, decides she aint worth it.
    Ha! that weapon could take on 50, maybe 100 gang members no problem! Awesome!

    But the OP asked what is the Catholic thing to do? I take that to imply that something could actually be done to help them, ergo, the woman and child's situation was not hopeless. If the situation was in fact meant to be altogether hopeless, then no sense to ask the question at all because there's nothing that could be done for them.


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #22 on: June 30, 2019, 09:06:57 PM »
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    • If I were heavily armed, and the rabble wasnt (such mobs usually are not) then the objective is to make an attempt to save the woman with or sand child. Kill a pile of the offenders quickly and the rest will run away like the feral pigs they are.
    And since the world has gone to pot, I would check into the feasibility of removing the remainder of the vermin from the face of the Earth.

    Shoot, I would go HK on them.  :D :cowboy:

    We need to continue working on those G's.!
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    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
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    Offline poche

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #23 on: July 08, 2019, 09:05:42 AM »
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    • I think we should trust in Jesus. 
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #24 on: August 06, 2019, 11:15:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 28, 2019, 05:32:23 PM
    .308 WIN cannot even come close to .338 in ELR shooting. 
    And .338LM cannot come close to .375CT and .416 Barrett in KO2M shooting. :-)
    https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/07/05/what-the-pros-use-king-2-miles-edition/

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #25 on: August 06, 2019, 11:23:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on June 30, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
    If you could get yourself one of these weapons, …
    You have heard of "The Butter Knife Strategy"?
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #26 on: August 07, 2019, 07:11:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on August 06, 2019, 11:23:26 PM
    You have heard of "The Butter Knife Strategy"?
    No I have not. So off to research go I! :)
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #27 on: August 07, 2019, 07:26:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on August 06, 2019, 11:15:03 PM
    And .338LM cannot come close to .375CT and .416 Barrett in KO2M shooting. :-)
    https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/07/05/what-the-pros-use-king-2-miles-edition/
    3800 yards with 375 CT.......woof! :(
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    Offline David Slays Goliath

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #28 on: August 07, 2019, 12:36:20 PM »
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    Offline Guardian

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    Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
    « Reply #29 on: January 17, 2020, 06:32:01 PM »
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    • As was suggested above, there are many factors to consider.  What kind of training and skills do you have?  What kind of firepower do you have?  What kind of perceived capabilities do your adversaries have?  The consideration that if you choose to walk away from this, you and your family will most likely be encountering this group in the near future.  The possibility that taking one or two of them out could very well scare the others away.  As Sean mentioned, considering this scenario or one similar to it certainly makes the case for becoming trained and prepared before such a WROL situation occurs.  It is also a good reason to be open to becoming part of a neighborhood militia group or examining the potential for forming one.  Doing so could go a long way to insuring your neighborhood is safer than the one in the scenario.  When considering forming a neighborhood defense group, trust and like-mindedness are key.  Since there's so few of us, forming a Trad-militia group probably isn't going to happen.  These aren't easy scenarios to consider, however, they are very helpful emotional/mental training exercises.  "Fortitudine et Deo Duce Ferro Comitante".
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