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Author Topic: TEOTWAWKI WROL Morality  (Read 5043 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2019, 10:20:38 AM »
Your whole post ignores the fact that the man debating about helping *has a wife a children back in the bunker*.
You said "so your own well being is secondary to trying to save the woman and child." You assume the man is single and unmarried, with no dependents either.

Why should that stranger woman and child have a higher claim on this man's life than his own wife and large family back in the bunker?

You even mock him, suggesting his day-to-day life isn't very noble, describing him whittling spearheads like some lonely bachelor or MGTOW, instead of having him
Actually, I mocked no one, I said the guy whittling spearheads is not a Catholic: "Perhaps it's easier to justify the above if you were to take the word "Catholic" out of the question..." Would hugging your children after ignoring the woman and child's peril be more Catholic than whittling spearheads?

Also, what about your post (along with the other's) assuming the woman and child are "single", while ignoring that the woman and child, who themselves had a large Catholic family waiting for them to come home so she could hug her large number of children, are totally out of luck if they were hoping for any help from a Catholic.

Does the Golden Rule simply not apply in anyway whatsoever? Are we not our brother's keepers? - if so, then are we not bound to attempt to at least do *something*? Whether it be throw rocks at them from the bushes, mow them down with an automatic rifle, or pick them off one at a time with a hunting rifle or ? BTW, my idea of a "gang" is 5 or 6, not 50, that would be a mob, not a gang.

I still think "the Catholic thing to do would be to do what you can to help the innocent at the same time not getting killed yourself". Which is to say the Catholic would need to think of some way to stop or forestall the gang without purposely getting himself killed, but if that's what it came to and he did get killed, he would be justified. His family is not going to die because he did, they have provisions and enough ammo to last them.  




Offline Ladislaus

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Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2019, 10:36:17 AM »
Are we not our brother's keepers? - if so, then are we not bound to attempt to at least do *something*? Whether it be throw rocks at them from the bushes, ...

So you throw a rock at them just so you can pretend you're doing something?  In doing so, you reveal your position and expose your family to slaughter.  But, hey, you threw a rock.  If on the other hand you did happen to have "a machine gun", and therefore a good/reasonable chance of saving the person without jeopardizing your family, then of course you would intervene.

Here's where it gets very blurry.  I have a weapon and think I have about a 90% chance of success.  But if that 10% comes about, then I've just killed my family.  That's a real tough one.  I would think that your obligation to protect your family comes first.  You are the head of your family and are duty-bound to protect them moreso than you are to protect a stranger.  As Matthew said, this was a big part of the OP's scenario.  Now, if you're a loner, then absolutely I agree with you, that if you have ANY halfway realistic chance of saving the person, you would be duty bound to try ... even at risk of your own life.  But that is not OP's scenario.


Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2019, 12:47:14 PM »
Why should that stranger woman and child have a higher claim on this man's life than his own wife and large family back in the bunker? 

This pretty well sums it up... "The Order of Charity."

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2019, 01:02:17 PM »
Quote
You are the head of your family and are duty-bound to protect them moreso than you are to protect a stranger.  As Matthew said, this was a big part of the OP's scenario. 
I agree, family comes first.  As St Paul says, we are obligated to take care of our household first, then those of the "household of the Faith" second (i.e. Trad catholics).  Strangers would be "dead" last (pun intented).  ...I don't think you're obligated to put yourself in danger of death for most people (family excluded).  In such a situation, you'd have to rely on your gut instinct and a quick prayer.
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Another simpler scenario would be related to food.  Supposed you're on your way to the grocery to buy some very necessary things and you don't have much money to spare (i.e. think of an inflationary, food-ration situation).  On the way to the grocery (or after you bought the food) you come across a starving family.  I would give them a little of money or food I had, but I could not give them all, since my family's needs come first.  
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Certainly, God has worked many miracles in such situations for saints that gave away all the food they had, and they returned home to the house/monastery empty handed.  Yet, God miraculously provided them food later.  Surely God can work such miracles for us too, if we had Faith, but there's also prudence to think about.  I'm no saint, so I don't know if such circuмstances were meant to test the Faith of the house/monastery and if the actual saint was given the inspiration to give all he had to the strangers.  In absence of such an inspiration, I would think you help them out some, but not give them all.  Maybe my Faith is just lacking?  Maybe I'm just looking at this too materially?  It's very possible.  
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Though there was a story where the Cure of Ars gave away all the school's food and had the children pray all night for a miracle.  In the morning, the food prayed for was there, but St John Marie made the comment that he would never do such a thing again, because he didn't want to tempt Divine Providence.  St John worked many miracles but even he knew that there were limits.  Where does one draw the line between Faith in God and human prudence?  That's a difficult question.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: TEOTWAKI WROL Morality
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2019, 01:12:44 PM »
So you throw a rock at them just so you can pretend you're doing something?  In doing so, you reveal your position and expose your family to slaughter.  But, hey, you threw a rock.  If on the other hand you did happen to have "a machine gun", and therefore a good/reasonable chance of saving the person without jeopardizing your family, then of course you would intervene.

Here's where it gets very blurry.  I have a weapon and think I have about a 90% chance of success.  But if that 10% comes about, then I've just killed my family.  That's a real tough one.  I would think that your obligation to protect your family comes first.  You are the head of your family and are duty-bound to protect them moreso than you are to protect a stranger.  As Matthew said, this was a big part of the OP's scenario.  Now, if you're a loner, then absolutely I agree with you, that if you have ANY halfway realistic chance of saving the person, you would be duty bound to try ... even at risk of your own life.  But that is not OP's scenario.
I quite clearly understand this, so are you saying that in this scenario, the Golden Rule does not apply - and if so, are you also admitting that in this scenario, that we are not our brother's keeper?

"He that hath the substance of this world, and shall see his brother in need, and shall shut up his bowels from him: how doth the charity of God abide in him?" [1 John 3:17]

So explain, how doth the charity of God abide in this Catholic who "shut up his bowels" from "his brother in need"?

I am obviously thinking more about the "brother in need" than about the Catholic man's own needs in this scenario. Which is to say that in order to go along with your scenario, you would need to explain how the Catholic is justified in "shutting up his bowels" from "his brother in need" as being the Catholic thing to do.