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Author Topic: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation  (Read 2503 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2018, 05:50:49 AM »
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  • .
    You take one section of a newspaper and pull out one sheet from among them, to find that page 6 and page 25 are printed on the same side of the sheet. From this fact, can you predict what the page numbers are, printed on the center sheet of the same section?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #16 on: September 10, 2018, 06:09:19 AM »
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  • 15,16?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 06:48:58 AM »
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  • 15,16?
                    :cheers:                 ! ;D !
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #18 on: September 10, 2018, 06:52:47 AM »
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  • .
    I think this one is usually harder. You really have to think outside the box!
    .
    .
                             What is the next number in this sequence?   1, 12, 1, 1, 1, ...
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #19 on: September 10, 2018, 11:56:41 AM »
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  • It depends on the Vegas odds and how much $ was bet.  
    .
    I don't think Las Vegas has any bowls with 30 blue and 20 red marbles in them.
    .
    But if Vegas did have bowls with 30 blue and 20 red marbles, and John bet $5 he would draw a red one, then what?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #20 on: September 11, 2018, 07:07:48 AM »
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  • .
    You want to boil an egg for exactly 5 minutes, but all you have is a 4-minute timer and a 3-minute timer.
    Can you plan how to use these two timers to measure the 5 minute cooking time? 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #21 on: September 11, 2018, 08:21:22 PM »
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  • .
    I think this one is usually harder. You really have to think outside the box!
    .
    .
                            What is the next number in this sequence?   1, 12, 1, 1, 1, ...

    Any number you like.

    Choose any 6th number, and one can construct a rule which predicts the sequence.

    Same with respect to cosmology. You can find any number of sets of equations that match astronomical observations. Or in maths, you can find any number of polynomials (or other functions) interpolating a given finite set of points.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #22 on: September 11, 2018, 08:37:12 PM »
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  • .
    You want to boil an egg for exactly 5 minutes, but all you have is a 4-minute timer and a 3-minute timer.
    Can you plan how to use these two timers to measure the 5 minute cooking time?

    You operate them in periodical mode. Then you have a beep every

    0 4 8 12 16 20 ... minutes

    as well as every

    0 3 6 9 12 15 18  ... minutes

    Five minutes for your egg is e.g. from 3 min (second timer) to 8 min (first timer).


    The 3 minutes, before you can start cooking, are not lost. You can e.g. roll a cigarette, light it, and contemplate the quantity of useful plants God created.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 12:11:11 AM »
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  • You operate them in periodical mode. Then you have a beep every

    0 4 8 12 16 20 ... minutes

    as well as every

    0 3 6 9 12 15 18  ... minutes

    Five minutes for your egg is e.g. from 3 min (second timer) to 8 min (first timer).


    The 3 minutes, before you can start cooking, are not lost. You can e.g. roll a cigarette, light it, and contemplate the quantity of useful plants God created.
    .
    Very good, Struthio! You surprised me. Listing the periodical beeps is an interesting development. 
    .
    This kind of puzzle is older than electronic timers. The answers given for use of hourglass sand timers can also work.
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    .
    The sand timer can be paused in progress by turning it sideways, for example.
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    But even though it doesn't make a "beep," by keeping an eye on the timers you can solve the puzzle in a similar way as you did.
    This would be the case for let's say a deaf person who can't hear the beep -- he would have to watch any timer.
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    1.  Start heating the pan with water to boil the egg, but don't put the egg in yet.
    2.  While waiting for the water to boil, turn both timers over, so the sand starts to flow in each.
    3.  When the 3-minute timer runs out of sand, immediately turn the 4-minute timer sideways, to pause it in action. 
         (The image above was selected to show the larger timer turned sideways, but imagine the smaller timer has run out.)
    4.  When the water begins to boil, place the egg into the water and resume the 4-minute timer, which has one minute of sand left.
    5.  While the egg boils this first minute, watch the 4-minute timer for it to run out of sand -- when it does, immediately turn it over so as to measure the remaining 4 minutes of egg-cooking time. One minute plus four minutes gives precisely a 5 minute egg.
    6.  Don't forget to REMOVE the egg from the boiling water as soon as the 4-minute timer runs out of sand.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 12:35:47 AM »
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  • Any number you like.

    Choose any 6th number, and one can construct a rule which predicts the sequence.

    Same with respect to cosmology. You can find any number of sets of equations that match astronomical observations. Or in maths, you can find any number of polynomials (or other functions) interpolating a given finite set of points.
    .
    The puzzle doesn't ask you to construct a rule. I realize that's part of how sequence problems are usually presented, but if they are properly done, they ask you to answer what the rule is such that the next number you provide abides by the same rule. So it's not to your discredit for you to expect this puzzle operates by the same pattern you have seen in the past regarding problems of numerical sequence. Like I said, though, you have to think outside the box for this one.
    .
    In this puzzle, no such requirement is made for construction of any rule.
    The puzzle does not say to give examples of several rules for several 6th numbers.
    But I noticed that you don't provide any such examples!
    .
    Perhaps you could give just one example of a rule you have successfully constructed and its corresponding 6th number??
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    However, for there to be a unique 6th number, some rule must apply.
    The puzzle asks what is THE next number (not what could be any of the many next numbers).
    And there is a unique answer that fulfills all the requirements.
    Therefore, what is the alternative to "constructing a rule?" (big hint!)
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 01:02:23 AM »
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  • .
    Incidentally, this puzzle could have easily asked for the next 4 numbers in the sequence, but the 6th number is sufficient and unique.
    .
    This is WAY more information than most recipients of this puzzle have had previously.
    .
    It has been reported that the vast majority of people cannot solve it. So don't feel left out if it's too difficult.
    .
    Perhaps you could give just one example of a rule you have successfully constructed and its corresponding 6th number?
    .
    What, for example, would be your "constructed rule" if the chosen 6th number would be 19?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 06:03:18 AM »
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  • What, for example, would be your "constructed rule" if the chosen 6th number would be 19?

    There is an online Lagrange Interpolation Calculator at easycalculation.com.

    In the box labelled "x" you enter 1,2,3,4,5,6
    In the box labelled "y" you enter 1,12,1,1,1,19
    In the box labelled "Value of corresponding to x" you enter 7

    After clicking the "Result" button, the result is shown in the box labelled "P(x)". The result is 175 giving you the 7th number:

    1,2,3,4,5,6,7
    1,12,1,1,1,19,175

    Entering these numbers and  "Value of corresponding to x" 8, you get P(x) = 764

    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8
    1,12,1,1,1,19,175,764

    The formula (i.e. the rule) used is shown below. Mathematicians will make up any number of different formulas you can use to find different curves with different properties "connecting the dots".

    Quote
    Formula used:

    Where, x and y are the coordinates
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 07:18:16 AM »
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  • .
    That's an interesting website, which would seem to be a reasonable basis for your outlook on this topic.
    However, there seems to be a problem.
    The formula it provides for the "rule" of operation is always the same formula, regardless of the numbers chosen for the series.
    .
    I tried to change the 6th number from 19 to 13, and the site offered 139 as the 7th, giving the same formula.
    .
    I tried changing the 5th number from 1 to 17 (1,12,1,1,17,...) and the site offered 26 as the 6th, giving the same formula.
    .
    I tried changing the 6th number from 26 to 1 (1,12,1,1,17,1,...) and the site gave -173 as the 7th, giving the same formula.
    .
    No matter what numbers I provide, it guesses the wrong number for the next in the series.
    But as soon as I correct the wrong number, it provides another wrong number for the subsequent number following.
    And in all cases, the same exact formula is provided as the "rule" that determines the next number.
    .
    So it's not working.
    .
    Try putting in 1,12... and asking for the third number. The site says that 23 is the third number. Wrong: it should be 1.
    Try putting in 1,12,1,... and ask for the fourth. It says -32 is the fourth. WRONG: it should be 1.
    Try putting in 1,12,1,1,... and ask for the fifth. It says 45 is the fifth. WRONG: it should be 1.
    Try putting in 1,12,1,1,1,... and ask for the sixth. It says -54 is the sixth. WRONG: it should be the one I asked for in the puzzle.
    We already tried 1,12,1,1,1,19,... and for the next, received 175.
    We already tried 1,12,1,1,1,13,... and for the next, got 139.
    We already tried 1,12,1,1,1,17,... and for the next, got 26.
    .
    And the real kicker is, 

    FOR ALL THESE WRONG NEXT NUMBERS AND THEIR CORRECTIONS, THE FORMULA REMAINS THE SAME.
    .
    So just for kicks, let me give you the correct 6th number, which is 2. The site has been unable to provide that number.
    Now, given the correct series from the puzzle, 1,12,1,1,1,2,... what does the site give as the formula?
    That's right. It provides the same formula as it did for 1,12,1,1,1,... followed by 19, 13 and 17, all of which were WRONG.
    .
    What does the site provide now for the 7th number in the series after 1,12,1,1,1,2,...? It says 73, which is WRONG.
    This site, as interesting as it is, has been UNABLE to correctly anticipate ANY of the numbers in this series, even the THIRD (1).
    And it gives the same formula FOR EVERYTHING, which by all reasonable expectations, must also be WRONG.
    This formula has exactly NOTHING to do with the very simple fact which correctly predicts all the numbers in the puzzle series.
    .
    Quote
    Formula used:

    Where, x and y are the coordinates
    .
    The site offers calculation of Lagrange polynomials.
    Apparently what this puzzle asks for has nothing to do with Lagrange polynomials.
    So their formula doesn't work on this puzzle.
    If Lagrange polynomials are for constructing curves, perhaps it would help to know that the puzzle is not based on any curve.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 07:36:14 AM »
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  • .
    There have been a few people in history who believed that mathematics is the answer for everything.
    Some cosmologists today are like that, who think there can be discovered a Theory of Everything, for example.
    .
    But they are quite easily found out to be barking up the wrong tree.
    When a simple question like this puzzle can throw a monkey wrench into their whole gearbox, rendering it utterly useless.
    .
    There is no mathematical formula or geometric progression or Lagrange polynomial series that can predict the 6th number.
    Or for that matter, the 7th or 8th, either. 
    .
    And furthermore, the statement that you can pick any number you want for the 6th, is shown to be false. 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: PUZZLE -- Fixing a False Equation
    « Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 08:51:15 AM »
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  • Neil Obstat,

    the question I answered was

    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    What, for example, would be your "constructed rule" if the chosen 6th number would be 19?

    I presented a rule which can be used to produce the sequence 1,12,1,1,1,19.


    Here's another answer, showing that the next number is not the number two:

    Quote from: Neils
    What is the next number in this sequence?   1, 12, 1, 1, 1, ...

    The next number is the number one. The sequence gives the number of cuckoo calls of a cuckoo clock at a quarter to twelve, twelve, a quarter past twelve, half past twelve, a quarter to one, one, etc.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)