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Author Topic: No Guns in the Church  (Read 14949 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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No Guns in the Church
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2014, 05:59:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: JoeZ
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg

    As much as I am a big gun guy, I do think property owners should retain the right to ban firearms from their premises.  Private property rights.  




    I must respectfully disagree here. To demand a person to go unarmed on your property is to legislate away one of his rights. That is wrong. Consider any other right in the same context.

    You must be unarmed on my property.
    You must worship pagan gods on my property.
    You must be naked or view porn on my property.
    You may never leave my property.

    You see, property rights do not trump other rights. No rights at all trump any other. The source of man's rights is God the Father and to suggest that they (rights) somehow conflict with each other is to imply an imperfect plan or flaw by Providence. A person has a right to follow the True Religion and this right is his everywhere, and no law can be validly made that infringes on this. No entity may legislate away men's rights. A person has a right to life and that right justifies the use of even deadly power to defend it. I'll go even a bit farther and say that a husband has sworn an oath to protect and would be wrong to surrender the means to do so.

    There are no reasonable restrictions on rights. This is a modern error. For example, the power of speech and freedom to use it(given the proper circuмstances) is not given to men to cause mayhem (screaming fire at a theater) or spread lies, therefore laws against such are not reasonable restrictions on a right but rather punishment of wrong doing. Wrongful acts must be punished and rights must never be infringed.

    St. Paul said something to this effect. Please allow me some time to find it.

    God bless
    JoeZ


    If the president can ban guns from the White House and it is to be honored, than I think a priest can ban guns from his church. I support firearms and the right to carry them wherever you like, but the analogy and explanation you gave is very wrong. This is basic Thomism. A law is to promote the common good. Does prohibiting guns in public gathering places or places where security risks can exist serve the common good? Obviously that is the intention as anyone can see. If you are suspicious of the intent of the law you can go to a different place. You are not obliged to attend Mass at one place or the other and have the option of obeying "the law of the land" or finding a parish where you can enter with guns.

    The analogy of forcing you to stay or get naked is not compatible with forcing you to leave your gun at home. Does forcing you to get naked promote the common good? No. It never will.

    You can't just disregard anyone's else's rules as an "unjust law" if it serves to promote the common good.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    You are not obliged to resolve the Church’s crisis by absolutizing any faction. Your obligation is to preserve faith, reason, humility, and charity,and to refuse to make any human authority into an idol.

    Offline JoeZ

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    « Reply #46 on: May 24, 2014, 10:24:27 PM »
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  • Quote: " If the president can ban guns from the White House and it is to be honored, than I think a priest can ban guns from his church."
    Assuming you mean the US president this statement is false. The president of the US is not a legislator (law maker) and therefore cannot ban anything; he can merely concur with a ban and at that the the lawmakers don't need him.


    Quote:  "Does prohibiting guns in public gathering places or places where security risks can exist serve the common good?"
    No, by far most (95%) of all  mass shootings in the US occur in gun free zones. The gun free zone laws work against the public good as they indicate to the murderous person where easy pickings are.

    Quote:  "Obviously that is the intention as anyone can see."
    Opinion only, and wrong at that if you want my opinion. To claim something is patently obvious when it is purely subjective is a poorly supported argument trying to stifle debate by intimidation.


    Quote:  "If you are suspicious of the intent of the law you can go to a different place".
    I'm not sure what you mean by this but I will try to help you. Intent of a law is never relevant. The wording of the law is all that matters otherwise we would have to "get inside the head" of every law maker, parent, landowner,commanding officer, bishop, and pope that ever made a law so that we could properly follow the rules they made, if applicable to us.


    Quote:   "You are not obliged to attend Mass at one place or the other and have the option of obeying "the law of the land" or finding a parish where you can enter with guns."
    Men have a God given right to practice the True Religion and those who impede that sin. Being the ordinary bishop, this null and void law will be diocese wide and therefore imposing a serious impediment and thereby increasing the gravity of his sin. I understand that we are talking about NO'ers and they are probably better off not going at all, but please understand I'm speaking of the principle of the issue.


    Quote:  "The analogy of forcing you to stay or get naked is not compatible with forcing you to leave your gun at home."
    Both are a violation of your rights and in that they are equal. The gravity of each individual situation will increase or mitigate actual culpability.


    Quote:   "Does forcing you to get naked promote the common good? No. It never will. "
    Agreed: and disarming me will never promote the common good either, and is therefore a violation of my rights and duty as husband and protector. Any such law is therefore null and void.


    Quote:  "You can't just disregard anyone's else's rules as an "unjust law" if it serves to promote the common good."
    No law violating the God given rights of man can be valid. Do not ignore the great dignity men have as an image and likeness of God. This life we have is sacred, and your fellow practicing Catholics are the very temples of the Holy Ghost. Do not belittle the right and duty to protect such.

    I hope I have helped in this matter.
    Also, if any here want to learn rifle and pistol marksmanship, I am more than willing to help as I am an instructor. I live in S.E. Wisconsin and am willing to travel.

    God bless,
    JoeZ
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #47 on: May 25, 2014, 03:03:55 PM »
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  • That's ridiculous. You have distorted basic principals. I don't agree with your perspective at all. Nobody has the right to be armed on my property if I tell them to put their guns down.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    You are not obliged to resolve the Church’s crisis by absolutizing any faction. Your obligation is to preserve faith, reason, humility, and charity,and to refuse to make any human authority into an idol.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #48 on: May 25, 2014, 06:23:02 PM »
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  • Gun laws don't trump property laws. Only a Leninist-Marxist-Maoist would come to such a conclusion.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    You are not obliged to resolve the Church’s crisis by absolutizing any faction. Your obligation is to preserve faith, reason, humility, and charity,and to refuse to make any human authority into an idol.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #49 on: May 26, 2014, 04:05:43 AM »
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  • Quote:  "You are not obliged to attend Mass at one place or the other and have the option of obeying "the law of the land" or finding a parish where you can enter with guns."
    Men have a God given right to practice the True Religion and those who impede that sin. Being the ordinary bishop, this null and void law will be diocese wide and therefore imposing a serious impediment and thereby increasing the gravity of his sin. I understand that we are talking about NO'ers and they are probably better off not going at all, but please understand I'm speaking of the principle of the issue.

    The law of the land in this issue encourages people to bring guns into the church. The archbishop is defying the intent of this law by prohibiting guns in the churches of his archdiocese.


    Offline poche

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    « Reply #50 on: May 26, 2014, 04:14:43 AM »
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  • Quote:  "You can't just disregard anyone's else's rules as an "unjust law" if it serves to promote the common good."
    No law violating the God given rights of man can be valid. Do not ignore the great dignity men have as an image and likeness of God. This life we have is sacred, and your fellow practicing Catholics are the very temples of the Holy Ghost. Do not belittle the right and duty to protect such.

    The right to bear arms is a civil right enshrined in the constitution. It can be taken away if the constitution were to be ammended. While it is given that you have the right to legitimate self defense in the event of an attack that doesn't translate into a right to carry guns anywhere and everywhere. They have metal detection devises to prevent people from bringing guns into courthouses and airplanes. The archbishop feels that the church is not the place to be carrying guns around unless the person is a lawenfofcement officer or someone simiilarly so designated.      

    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #51 on: May 26, 2014, 07:08:09 AM »
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  • Good point Pooche, if you are such a diehard believer in your right to carry guns anywhere you like, let's see you walk your happy face in the courthouse with your guns instead of wasting your time complaining about the Church violating your "human rights".
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    You are not obliged to resolve the Church’s crisis by absolutizing any faction. Your obligation is to preserve faith, reason, humility, and charity,and to refuse to make any human authority into an idol.

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #52 on: May 26, 2014, 11:24:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Good point Pooche, if you are such a diehard believer in your right to carry guns anywhere you like, let's see you walk your happy face in the courthouse with your guns instead of wasting your time complaining about the Church violating your "human rights".

    They have metal detectors at the courthouse to prevent peple from bringing guns in.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #53 on: May 27, 2014, 10:16:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: Centroamerica
    Good point Pooche, if you are such a diehard believer in your right to carry guns anywhere you like, let's see you walk your happy face in the courthouse with your guns instead of wasting your time complaining about the Church violating your "human rights".

    They have metal detectors at the courthouse to prevent peple from bringing guns in.


    I know. I was being sarcastic.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    You are not obliged to resolve the Church’s crisis by absolutizing any faction. Your obligation is to preserve faith, reason, humility, and charity,and to refuse to make any human authority into an idol.

    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #54 on: June 20, 2014, 12:42:54 PM »
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  • In regard to a previous post, the real question is: what is "the common good"? If we are well-trained by the government media, our knee-jerk response will be to parrot "gun-free zone."

    However, if we think like Catholics we understand the concept of self-protection. For the common good, it is better that good people be armed to protect themselves and others from bad people who seek out gun-free zones.

    God gave me the right to protect myself. The Constitution did not give that right to me, so even if the gun-grabbers further pervert the Constitution by attempting to take that right of self-defense away, it is not valid. Along with my other natural law rights, our rights remain (even if they are wrongly trampled.)
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #55 on: June 20, 2014, 12:55:16 PM »
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  • Protecting Your Church Against Violence

    by David Roach

    On June 22, 1980, members of First Baptist Church in Daingerfield, Texas, were singing “More About Jesus” in the morning worship service when a gunman entered and yelled, “This is war!” Then he opened fire, shooting fifteen people and killing five.

    It was the first mass murder by shooting at an American church. Sadly, similar acts of violence have occurred at other churches in the years since. In both mass shootings and individual episodes of violence, people continue to die at the hands of violent intruders in houses of worship. Since 1999, when violent episodes at churches and other places of worship began to escalate with alarming frequency, 427 people have died in incidents involving deadly force at faith-based organizations in America, according to church security expert Carl Chinn. During that time, more deadly force incidents have occurred in Baptist churches (135) than in any other denomination.

    In the midst of such violence, church safety leaders urge Southern Baptist congregations of all sizes to take preventive measures before it is too late.

    “It’s unlikely that any one congregation will face a violent intruder,” Jim Welch, director of property and casualty at GuideStone Financial Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention, told SBC LIFE. “But unfortunately it’s likely that some will. So at GuideStone we want to equip Southern Baptist churches to . . . be prepared for this event if it ever happens to them.”

    GuideStone, which provides property and casualty insurance coverage to churches through a partnership with Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Company, has a church safety toolkit on its website (www.guidestonepropertycasualty.org) to help churches guard against violence and other disasters.

    A HISTORY OF CHURCH SHOOTINGS
    One of the worst church shootings on record occurred in 1999 at Wedgwood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas. Seven people were killed and seven more injured when a lone gunman entered the sanctuary during a See You At The Pole rally on a Wednesday night. At the end of the rampage, the gunman sat on the back pew and shot himself in the head.

    Though church shootings occurred before 1999, that year marked the beginning of a continuing wave of violence that includes murders and ѕυιcιdєs on faith-based properties. Church security specialist Jimmy Meeks called 1999 “the year the dam broke” in terms of church violence.

    “In my law enforcement career . . . I’ve never seen so many angry people, and angry people will hurt you,” said Meeks, a police officer in Hurst, Texas, who also travels the country doing church security seminars. “In people there’s a lot of anger, and when you’re angry you just don’t care where you commit your crime.”

    Some church violence garners widespread media coverage, like the 2007 shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, where two were killed, and the 2009 shooting at First Baptist Church in Maryville, Illinois, where pastor Fred Winters received four fatal wounds to the chest. But violent deaths continue, more than thirty per year, even when there is little national media attention.

    In December 2012 alone, the last month for which Chinn had posted records on his website, there were ten violent crimes committed on church property in which deadly force was either used or threatened.

    For example, on December 9, 56-year-old Kelvin Adams shot his ex-girlfriend two times as she came out of a morning service at Faith Center Church in Sunrise, Florida. Then he used the gun to commit ѕυιcιdє. The victim survived.

    And on December 21, a gunman entered Juniata Valley Gospel Church in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania, and shot Kimberly Scott as she decorated the building. Before police cornered and killed the gunman, he killed two other people in a crime spree at multiple locations.

    “Every seminar I do I put these statistics before the people,” Meeks said of church crime statistics. “Ninety-nine percent of them will admit that they had no idea this was going on.”

    PREVENTING VIOLENCE AT CHURCH
    After the shooting in Daingerfield, some church attendees lost their faith in God while others suffered nightmares and plotted revenge, said Sondra Martin Hicks, producer and director of a docuмentary on the east Texas shooting. She added that the divorce rate in the congregation surged following the shooting and urged pastors who want to help their churches avoid such misery to start church security ministries.

    “When you watch this film as a pastor, you’ll see that if you risk not doing anything, you’re risking people’s lives forever,” Hicks said.

    The docuмentary, titled “Faith Under Fire,” is the product of more than two years of work and is available for shipping costs at Hicks’ website, www.heartstonepictures.com.

    Forming a security ministry team should be a priority at both large and small churches, GuideStone’s Welch said. Ideally, the team should consist of active and retired law enforcement personnel along with carefully selected and trained laypeople, he said. Their duties should be to assess risks, establish a plan for responding to security threats, and make sure the church has adequate insurance coverage to help victims recover if crime occurs, according to Welch.

    Churches should check state and local laws and seek legal counsel when evaluating security needs because some states limit who can carry a gun to church and what terms can be used to describe security ministries.

    “Though some people may bristle or be concerned when they hear something about a safety and security ministry or safety and security team in a church, frankly security is visible everywhere we go—whether it be to the ballgame or a theme park or whatever,” Welch said. “So a visible, friendly, ministry-minded team is something that can help make visitors as well as members feel welcome and safe.”

    Among the security risks that teams should look for are:
    • Entry doors without a greeter to monitor them.
    • Unsecure children’s areas.
    • Doors that remain unlocked during the night where intruders can slip in and hide.

    During church activities, security ministry members should watch for suspicious behavior like people leaving at unexpected times, especially if they leave something behind they entered with, people wearing trench coats in hot weather, and people wandering in the parking lot.

    Teams should also establish ways to communicate with each other and with church leaders quickly if an intruder enters, and should have specific plans for how to evacuate or lock down buildings, Welch said.

    “Some of these security concerns don’t require a considerable amount of capital outlay to be worked on,” he said. “For example, alerting your Sunday School teachers of an intruder could be as simple as sending a group text message to the teachers on their cell phones. Or evacuating worship centers could be facilitated by [having] the right kind of door latches or moving furniture out of the way.”

    CONFRONTING A SHOOTER
    Though having an active shooter in the building is an unlikely scenario for any church, it is important to plan for the possibility, according to Welch and Meeks.

    Following protocols rather than improvising a response is one of the best ways to prevent deaths and injuries, Welch said. Among the steps he recommended if a violent intruder enters a church:
    • Alert the entire security ministry team and the police.
    • Evacuate worshipers when possible and lock doors in areas that can be secured.
    • Have trained security personnel approach and incapacitate the intruder.

    Additionally, make sure your congregation knows that you have a plan in place to address a violent intruder—as well as what steps you want them to take (including evacuating calmly or seeking shelter).

    “You’ve got to go wild on this person that comes in your congregation,” Meeks said of confronting an active shooter. “There has to be a group of men sitting strategically that are just going to go berserk and rise up against this person and go after him.”

    Churches that can afford it should hire off-duty police officers or a security company to provide armed security, Meeks said, emphasizing that an armed response is extremely helpful in the event of an armed intruder.

    PROTECT WORSHIPERS
    Security should not be the main focus of any church, according to Meeks. But providing adequate security helps create an environment for making disciples—one where people don’t fear violence and where memories of violence don’t hinder them from attending church, he said.

    “One reason I am so passionate about this to the point where it’s hard to talk without weeping is that I have witnessed for thirty-two years the misery that violence leaves behind,” he said. “They’re still weeping and still hurting at Daingerfield. It’s been almost thirty-three years.”

    He urged churches to protect worshipers and remember that God opposes those who plot violence.

    David Roach, a member of Buck Run Baptist Church in Frankfort, Kentucky, is editorial associate for SBC LIFE .

    MASS MURDER AT US CHURCHES: A HISTORY

    by Carl Chinn

    The Federal Bureau of Investigation describes “mass murder” as four or more murders occurring during the same incident, with no distinctive period of time between the murders. Typically, but not always, these events involve a single location where victims are killed in an ongoing incident.

    Using this description, the following recounts mass murders at churches on US soil since 1960. The number of incidents where one, two, or three people have been killed or seriously wounded in church settings has escalated over the past fifty years and numbers in the hundreds.

    September 15, 1963
    16th Street Baptist Church
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Domestic terrorists planted a concoction of dynamite on a timer which exploded under a street-side stairwell at the church. An eleven-year-old and three fourteen-year-old girls were killed.

    June 22, 1980
    First Baptist Church
    Daingerfield, Texas
    A gunman attacked the Sunday morning service, coming through the sanctuary doors, yelling “this is war,” and firing into the congregation. He killed a seven-year-old girl, an adult woman, and three adult men in the shooting, which lasted barely one minute.

    March 10, 1999
    New St. John Baptist Church
    Gonzales, Louisiana
    On a Wednesday an estranged husband with a gun killed his wife’s mother at her home then drove to the church, where he walked into the evening service. When the gunman’s two-year-old son said, “Daddy,” the gunman said, “Boy, don’t call me daddy now,” and killed him. He then killed his wife and a young man sitting nearby.

    September 15, 1999
    Wedgwood Baptist Church
    Fort Worth, Texas
    A man, distraught over his father’s death, drove to what appeared to be a random location choice where a See You at the Pole celebration rally was being held. He shot his first victim while walking in the lobby doors, asking, “Is this where that (expletive deleted) prayer meeting is going on?” He killed two seminary students, a member of the church staff, and four teenagers before taking his own life.

    March 12, 2005
    Living Church of God
    Brookfield, Wisconsin
    Angry at his pastor’s sermon, a man left the Sunday morning service and came back in shooting. He killed the pastor and six others before killing himself.

    August 28, 2005
    Sash Assembly of God Church
    Sash, Texas
    A neighbor of the church walked up to a deacon in the parking lot, whom he shot and killed. He then shot and killed the pastor who was standing nearby. As he fled the scene, he shot and killed two women who had stopped on a road to check their horse trailer.

    May 21, 2006
    Ministry of Jesus Christ Church
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    An estranged husband attacked his wife in church, killing four others as he stormed into the service. He kidnapped his wife out of the church and killed her at another location. He also shot and critically wounded the pastor.

    December 9, 2007
    YWAM (Arvada) and New Life Church (Colorado Springs)
    Arvada and Colorado Springs, Colorado
    A young man posted a ѕυιcιdє diatribe on the internet stating, “Christian America this is YOUR Columbine.” He then killed a young man and woman at a YWAM training facility, continuing to New Life Church, where he killed two teenage sisters before being stopped by church security.

    Carl Chinn is a church security expert and the author of Evil Invades the Sanctuary: The Case for Security in Faith-Based Organizations. He lives in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline DonT

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    « Reply #56 on: June 26, 2014, 07:13:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Quote:  "You can't just disregard anyone's else's rules as an "unjust law" if it serves to promote the common good."
    No law violating the God given rights of man can be valid. Do not ignore the great dignity men have as an image and likeness of God. This life we have is sacred, and your fellow practicing Catholics are the very temples of the Holy Ghost. Do not belittle the right and duty to protect such.

    The right to bear arms is a civil right enshrined in the constitution. It can be taken away if the constitution were to be ammended. While it is given that you have the right to legitimate self defense in the event of an attack that doesn't translate into a right to carry guns anywhere and everywhere. They have metal detection devises to prevent people from bringing guns into courthouses and airplanes. The archbishop feels that the church is not the place to be carrying guns around unless the person is a lawenfofcement officer or someone simiilarly so designated.      


    +1
    I carry in Church.
    Own a few pocket pistols and 38 snubs, no one has any idea, and I know Im not alone in my Traditional Catholic Church with regard to carrying.
    Protecting my family and my life is my #1 priority and that responsibility falls on me, not anyone else, so I encourage others to get their permit and carry. Even without a permit, I would and have carried.  

    That old adage of 'better to be judged than 12 than carried by 6' always stuck with me.
    Laws be damned, as there are many Catholic countries where one cannot carry, but thankfully our Founding Fathers wrote the Bill Of Rights 2nd Amendment.

    I care not what any Archbishop, The Pope, priest of anyone else thinks, My life=my duty to protect it.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #57 on: June 27, 2014, 01:59:43 PM »
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  • Since the novus ordo hierarchy agrees with all other tenants of communism, they may as well be for gun control / civilian disarmament also.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    « Reply #58 on: November 19, 2014, 06:20:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cera
    In regard to a previous post, the real question is: what is "the common good"? If we are well-trained by the government media, our knee-jerk response will be to parrot "gun-free zone."

    However, if we think like Catholics we understand the concept of self-protection. For the common good, it is better that good people be armed to protect themselves and others from bad people who seek out gun-free zones.

    God gave me the right to protect myself. The Constitution did not give that right to me, so even if the gun-grabbers further pervert the Constitution by attempting to take that right of self-defense away, it is not valid. Along with my other natural law rights, our rights remain (even if they are wrongly trampled.)

     :incense:
    May God bless you and keep you
    +RIP 11/14/25
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.