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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Catholic Bunker => Topic started by: Bonaventure on October 14, 2019, 01:16:46 PM

Title: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on October 14, 2019, 01:16:46 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/x7zK4pc/Learn-Shoot.jpg)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on October 15, 2019, 12:18:11 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/p3Vkmn0/Homework.jpg)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on October 18, 2019, 10:26:31 AM
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.75)]PRIMARY ARMS 1-8×24: AN IN-DEPTH REVIEW[/color]
https://www.americanpartisan.org/2018/05/primary-arms-1-8x24-an-in-depth-review/ (https://www.americanpartisan.org/2018/05/primary-arms-1-8x24-an-in-depth-review/)


[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.75)]THE SPR: AR GUERRILLA SNIPER RIFLE[/color]
https://www.americanpartisan.org/2019/01/the-spr-the-ar-guerrilla-sniper-rifle/ (https://www.americanpartisan.org/2019/01/the-spr-the-ar-guerrilla-sniper-rifle/)
Title: On the Subject of Marksmanship
Post by: Bonaventure on October 25, 2019, 02:55:58 PM
Darryl Davis (http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/woodfill.htm) – On the Subject of Marksmanship, MILITARY, February 1998, pp.18-19:

Quote
Rifle marksmanship is a civilian attribute which is alien to the military environment. It must be introduced into the military by force and can be kept in the military only by ongoing active measures, else it will be eradicated and replaced by equipment familiarity.

– 14th Iron Law of Marksmanship

The military does not teach rifle marksmanship. It teaches equipment familiarity. Despite what the officer corps thinks, learning to shoot a rifle is not like learning to drive a car. Instead, it is like learning to play the violin. You can have coherent-appearing results after equipment familiarity training, but to get the real results, you keep plodding on. The equipment familiarity learning curve comes up very quick, but then the rifle marksmanship continuation of the curve rises very slowly, by shooting one careful shot at a time, carefully inspecting the result, and the cause.

How are we doing with rifle marksmanship? By Vietnam, wasn’t everything beyond 200 meters abandoned to crew-served weapons?

During Vietnam, troops pulled back from the line for R&R were tested to reveal that they could, on average, pump out 300 rounds a minute at a target 50 meters away at a rifle range, and they would average one hit per minute. During the American Revolution, the enemy advised their officers that even at over 200 yards the American riflemen will hit with their first shot, so officers should conduct themselves accordingly. Also that these riflemen could reach as far as 300 yards.

As flintlock riflemen can pump out a maximum of only four shots per minute, it is obvious that Vietnam troopers have 75 times the firepower of the flintlock riflemen of the Revolution. This is in terms of muzzle statistics. In terms of target statistics, the flintlock shooter has four times the firepower of the M16 user because he has the skill to make every shot hit and the M16 user cannot hit more than once per minute.

https://armyreservemarksman.info/2009/09/20/subject-of-military-marksmanship/ (https://armyreservemarksman.info/2009/09/20/subject-of-military-marksmanship/)

Title: To .223 or not .223?
Post by: Bonaventure on October 26, 2019, 08:35:51 AM
Quote
The .223 round is a marginal performer against humans. Although it offers advantages over handgun rounds or shotgun rounds, you must be careful to not expect too much.  

~Gabriel Suarez, The Tactical Rifle, p. 40 (1999)

Quote
The large wound cavity of the 55gr is produced by the bullet fragmentation (usually at the cannelure), which occurs only if impact velocity is at least 2800fps.  Such velocities may be expected only within 150yds (for 20" barrels) and within 75yds for 16" barrels.  After farther ranges, no bullet fragmentation will occur and the rounds lethality (marginal at best) is significantly reduced.

The .223 is also a poor penetrator, which is good or bad depending on its intended use.  You'll be surprised to learn that the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP better perforate walls, care doors, and windshields.  The .223 simply breaks up too easily (it was designed to fragment without Geneva Convention-prohibited (sic-actually Hague Convention) hollowpoint construction).

~Boston T. Party, Boston's Gun Bible (revised), p.9/5 (2002)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on October 26, 2019, 11:25:44 AM
The 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO are approximately equal in effectiveness against soft targets from about 75 (12.5: barrel) to150 (20" barrel) yards.  Beyond that the 7.62 NATO prevails.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Jews Did 911 on October 26, 2019, 05:38:39 PM
Dry fire your rifle.

Dry fire ... dry fire ... dry fire ... and do it some more.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: JoeZ on December 22, 2019, 07:21:24 PM
While I prefer the 308 as a battle rifle or DMR cartridge, I've field dressed several whitetail shot and killed by the 223. My young sons are trained on the AR15 using a red dot sight and a 50gr varmint round. I've seen both lungs destroyed (bullet did not exit), near spine hits that incapacitate, and a heart destroyed all at ranges from 30 to 200 yards. Every deer they have hit was killed. Although I must say for ranges beyond 300 yards the performance drop is unacceptable. For a smaller person or for CQB there is no better platform than an AR15 (for us lowly civilians) if one uses the proper ammunition. FMJ is for practice fellas.

For grown men, use a scoped 308 DMR for the better range and ammunition commonality. Yes they are heavy, but suck it up buttercup, hunt with it, practice with it, know it intimately. 

The OP is an excerpt from Fred's guide to becoming a rifleman and was a central part of the foundation of the Project Appleseed (of which I am a senior instructor). We teach traditional American marksmanship and I have a altered course which teaches precision marksmanship if any one is interested check out https://appleseedinfo.org/ or contact me.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on December 22, 2019, 07:53:27 PM
 FMJ is for practice fellas.

And I believe that is the ammo both Boston and Suarez are referring to with the above quotes. 

I don't know of any 5.56 that isn't FMJ (even the 'Green Tip" penetrators are FMJ).  And FMJ is about the only .223 Rem ammo one is going to find in bulk.  Otherwise, bring a wheel-barrow full of FRN's if you want to stack non-FMJ deep.

OR.... start getting the components and rollin' yer own. 

I hear the 62gr SP-BT's are the Bees Knees in that regard.

YMMV
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on December 23, 2019, 03:16:51 PM
And I believe that is the ammo both Boston and Suarez are referring to with the above quotes.  

I don't know of any 5.56 that isn't FMJ (even the 'Green Tip" penetrators are FMJ).  And FMJ is about the only .223 Rem ammo one is going to find in bulk.  Otherwise, bring a wheel-barrow full of FRN's if you want to stack non-FMJ deep.

OR.... start getting the components and rollin' yer own.  

I hear the 62gr SP-BT's are the Bees Knees in that regard.

YMMV
Hornady Frontier carries 5.56 mm rounds in a few hollowpoint variations. It will be spring though before I will be able to try them out. Supposed to be a cold winter up here in Alberta, or at least parts thereof. Still have to sight my Ruger Ranch 5.56's new scope.
Title: Re: On the Subject of Marksmanship
Post by: Bonaventure on December 29, 2019, 07:11:49 PM
For the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force, this is most likely true...  For the Marine Corps, however, it's a different breed altogether.  

For starters, every Marine is a rifleman - from the mess hall attendant to the scout sniper.  I didn't serve in Vietnam, as I wasn't even born yet, but I did serve 8 years on active duty from 1996-2004.  During those 8 years, every Marine was required to qualify with the M16 A2 service rifle on a KD range with the last qualification period on the 500 yard line with open sights...yeah, 500 yards with open sights.  I'm pretty sure nothing has changed since, with the exception of the improved GI service rifles.    

That last sentence of the article is total BS...  I can put 10 rounds in the black on a "B" Modified Target at 500 rounds with the M16 A2...open sights - and so can 80% of the Marines I served with.  

I'd be happy to duel it out with ANY goofball and a flintlock rifle against my M16 A2, anytime and anywhere...      

Well, I'm not about to dispute what the Marines do, but at the end of the day, I'm not a Marine.  Nor Army/Navy/Airforce, for that matter.  So, if I'm ever in a firefight, odds are, not only will I more than likely be by myself or maybe with one or two others, I won't have any backup, artillery support or a medivac to whisk me away to a field hospital.  In short, what works for the military, and the Marines, may not work all that well for me.  In that regard, and as Boston T. Party says several times in his Boston's Gun Bible, 5.56/.223 really shouldn't be the caliber of choice. 

And while I do not question your ability to get shots on target at 500 yds with an M16 A2, the effectiveness of that round at that range is simply not something I would feel all that comfortable with.  Granted, while I obviously wouldn't want to take one to the head at that range, even the least bit of cover repels the round.  For example, I recall several years ago shooting out to ~600 yds with a friend of mine.  We were shooting at newly painted iron gong; I with my .308 and he with his .223.  And while I would say that the .223 may have been more accurate than my .308, when I hit the gong, it moved, made a solid report and left a mark we could easily see with our spotting scope.  Not so much for the .223; other than hearing an ever-so-slight report, the gong didn't move nor were there any visible markings from the impact.  I'll just leave it at that.

That being said, don't get me wrong... I've got several rifles chambered in .223 and enjoy them a lot.  One of them is an HBAR AR in A2 configuration.  First time I used it in a CMP match, got the silver medal below. 

:cowboy:
(https://i.ibb.co/ncJDp4Y/Medal.jpg)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on December 29, 2019, 09:56:11 PM
 The terminal ballistics of 5.56 NATO v. 7.62 NATO FMJ have been exhaustively explored.

The short version—Against soft targets, without barriers, 5.56 NATO M193 out of an M16 v. 7.62 NATO M80 FMJ out of an M14 (22" bbl) have approximately equal terminal ballistics to about 200 yards when the M16 has a 20" barrel and to about 150 yards when the M16 has a 14.5-16" barrel. This holds true because the primary wounding effects of the M193 are yaw and fragmentation. As velocity falls from shorter barrels, the fragmentation effect is quickly lost and the yaw effect degrades less quickly. Slightly less effective terminal ballistics are evident for the 5.56 NATO M855, but there is a gain in penetration.

Bullets have been designed to expand more (e.g., the huge variety of JSP and JHP projectiles), but penetration through soft tissue and barriers is severely degraded.

For brevity, in the above comparison I held the 7.62 NATO cartridge and barrel length fixed. You can run a full matrix of 5.56 v. 7.62 barrel lengths and projectiles, but the trend is too similar to make the effort.  You can, of course, search the internet for the full matrix of data.

Anyone want to talk about 6.5 Grendel?
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on December 30, 2019, 03:04:35 PM
Great short vid.

I will add one caveat though...   When it is said... "There is no higher level than here.  The best shooters in America come out [to the CMP National Matches at Camp Perry] each year and aim to be the best of the best."   This is not true.  How do I know?  'Cause I've competed there, and I'm no where near good, let alone the best!  

:cowboy:

This is on my checklist for 2020.

Enjoy.

https://youtu.be/7AEuewtFQBE
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on December 31, 2019, 10:30:35 AM
80,000 psi and steel/brass hybrid (metals of different dielectric constants).

You first!

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/ (https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on December 31, 2019, 03:23:02 PM
80,000 psi and steel/brass hybrid (metals of different dielectric constants).

You first!

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/ (https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/)

And another new round.  So many firearms, so little time.

However, sometimes I think the Mausers simply got it right the first time with their 7mm.  
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on December 31, 2019, 03:48:30 PM
And another new round.  So many firearms, so little time.

However, sometimes I think the Mausers simply got it right the first time with their 7mm.  
I'm going with the BIG 13.2mmSR TuF Mauser… https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/first-antitank-rifle-cartridge-132mm-tuf/370681 (https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/first-antitank-rifle-cartridge-132mm-tuf/370681)
(https://content.osgnetworks.tv/firearmsnews/content/photos/First-AntiTank-Rifle-Cartridge-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 05, 2020, 08:17:03 PM
Some of you may be on the same mailing list and already saw this, but it tickled my funny bone enough to post it.

Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 05, 2020, 09:42:24 PM
Some of you may be on the same mailing list and already saw this, but it tickled my funny bone enough to post it.
Are all out of bubblegum? ;)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 05, 2020, 09:49:12 PM
(http://judaism.is/images/they%20live.jpg?crc=347107885)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 06, 2020, 01:24:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp_K8prLfso

except the ttarget now are the fake Red Sea pedestrians :cowboy:
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 06, 2020, 02:03:01 AM
…fake Red Sea pedestrians :cowboy:
(http://judaism.is/images/2.jpg?crc=4244825213)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 06, 2020, 02:39:12 AM
(http://judaism.is/images/2.jpg?crc=4244825213)
good clip!!!
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Immaculatam Hostiam on January 06, 2020, 01:10:32 PM
Can somebody recommend a video demonstration on learning to reload ammo?
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 06, 2020, 03:14:50 PM
Can somebody recommend a video demonstration on learning to reload ammo?
I cannot vouch for any of these: https://www.google.com/search?q=video+begnning+reloading+ammunition&oq=video+begnning+reloading+ammunition&aqs=chrome..69i57.7249j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=video+begnning+reloading+ammunition&oq=video+begnning+reloading+ammunition&aqs=chrome..69i57.7249j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Any of the branded reloading manuals have good step-by-step instructions and there are several non-branded handbooks dedicated to reloading.

Where (approximately) do you live?  What cartridges do you want to reload? What is your shooting niche?

I ask because our advice can be tailored to your needs, e.g., the need sare quite different for someone shooting handgun cartridges at short range versus shooting extreme long range rifles for precision.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 06, 2020, 09:41:24 PM
good clip!!!
If you liked that page, you can see the entire comic here: http://judaism.is/h0Ɩ0cαųst.html#talesoftheh0Ɩ0h0αx (http://judaism.is/h0Ɩ0cαųst.html#talesoftheh0Ɩ0h0αx)

The comic is really well done, so well done that the artists went to jail.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Immaculatam Hostiam on January 07, 2020, 05:35:45 AM
Mark79, thanks for your input. I like shooting various revolver cartridges and non-magnum rifle cartridges that shoot flat and still reach out at a distance. I live in the midwest. Mostly target shooting & plinking, but also prepping self defense rounds for SHTF and carry.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 07, 2020, 02:44:03 PM
Can somebody recommend a video demonstration on learning to reload ammo?
In addition to what has been said, it can not be stressed enough that reloading is something that one should not simply do on their own w/out any mentoring guidance.  In that regard, I would advise you to seek someone in your area that has at least a basic understanding of how to run single-stage press and show you the ins-and-outs of it the entire process.  Watching videos is helpful, but rarely will you find a video that covers your exact setup. And sometimes, it's the little things that can lead to larger frustrations.

That being said...

A good beginner's book is The ABC's of Reloading.
https://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading-Definitive-Novice-Expert/dp/1440213968/ref=sr_1_1?crid=128QIZTXSK3XG&keywords=abcs+of+reloading&qid=1578429950&sprefix=abcs+of+rel%2Caps%2C158&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading-Definitive-Novice-Expert/dp/1440213968/ref=sr_1_1?crid=128QIZTXSK3XG&keywords=abcs+of+reloading&qid=1578429950&sprefix=abcs+of+rel%2Caps%2C158&sr=8-1)

I would also get several reloading manuals as put out by component manufacturer's; you can compare varying powders and charges for different bullets.  If you decide on a particular bullet, then at least have the reloading data put out by that bullet mfg.  However, I would avoid the Hornady manual (at least the 9th ed), as I have found it to be quite inaccurate (their max loads always seem to be on the low side, and I could never get the velocities they report (mine always lower) on a variety of bullets and powder charges). BUT... it does offer a good explanation on the reloading process.

For components, a basic setup would include:
--Single-stage press (you could also get a hand press, but in the long run, I believe you'd get tired of this quite soon).
--Set of dies for the particular cartridge you're reloading
----For rifle cartridges, this would include at least a Full-Length resizer die (and deprimer depending on the brand you get) and bullet seating die.
----For pistil cartridges, this would include a sizing die, an expander die and and bullet seating die.  Optional is a crimping die.
--Priming tool (if your press does not come with one).
--Powder charger; powder trickler options, but recommended.
--Powder scale.
--Brass trimmer.
--Dial caliper.
--Case lube
--Trays, funnel, and powder scoop.
--Case gauge for the particular cartridge.

Presently, MidwayUSA is offering a Redding Reloading Kit for <$400.  This has most of the components one will need to get started reloading.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1013074468?pid=898448&utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Presses&utm_content=898448&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Presses-_-Redding-_-898448 (https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1013074468?pid=898448&utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Presses&utm_content=898448&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Reloading+-+Metallic+Reloading+Presses-_-Redding-_-898448)

Note: Generally speaking, reloading rifle and pistol cartridges are not exactly the same. For example, after sizing straight-walled cases (i.e., nearly all pistol cases are straight-walled), one must also pass the casing through the expnder die to flare the mouth so that it can receive the bullet; this is not required in most rifle cartridges, especially if they are necked.

General steps in the reloading process for rifle cartridges are:
--Clean brass.
--Lube brass.
--Pass casing through F-L resizer die; if die comes with a deprimer pin, old primer gets knocked out at this stage.  
--Wash/wipe off any remaining lube.
--Ensure case is properly sized.
--Trim mouth of case if not within specs.
--Prime case.
--Measure our appropriate powder charge and drop into case.
--Position bullet over case and pass through the bullet seating die on press.
--Measure to ensure proper Cartridge Overall Length (C.O.L.)
--Ready to fire.

(ETA: Of course, after posting this, all of my embedded links are messed up.  I give up on trying to understand how this platform works, or rather, why it does not work.)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 07, 2020, 04:13:00 PM
If you liked that page, you can see the entire comic here: http://judaism.is/h0Ɩ0cαųst.html#talesoftheh0Ɩ0h0αx (http://judaism.is/h0Ɩ0cαųst.html#talesoftheh0Ɩ0h0αx)

The comic is really well done, so well done that the artists went to jail.
After looking at this cartoons, yes, I can see why the Synagoggies would throw more than a hissy fit.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 07, 2020, 06:28:01 PM
Mark79, thanks for your input. I like shooting various revolver cartridges and non-magnum rifle cartridges that shoot flat and still reach out at a distance. I live in the midwest. Mostly target shooting & plinking, but also prepping self defense rounds for SHTF and carry.
Well then… you are straddling the fence, needing both "mass quantities" (plinking) and "precision" (non-magnum rifle cartridges that shoot flat and still reach out at a distance).

As a competent reloader, I would approach "mass quantities" with a progressive reloading press (e.g., pick your price point with the Dillion line https://www.dillonprecision.com/ (https://www.dillonprecision.com/) ), but approach "precision" with a high-end single-stage coaxial reloading press (e.g., Forster https://www.forsterproducts.com/ (https://www.forsterproducts.com/) ) and a bevy of high-end (viz., expensive) accoutrements (e.g., magnetic restoration scale https://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/sartorius-magnetic-scale-is-fast-ultra-precise/ (https://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/sartorius-magnetic-scale-is-fast-ultra-precise/) ).

In the decades when I was active in "3-Gun" competition, I typically shot 1,000-4,000 rounds per month in practice. I decided to reduce my costs, so I scrounged my brass and was gifted brass and reloaded it all. It took me about 2 weeks of evenings to reload about 2,000 rounds (clean, lube, re-size, case-length trim, de-lube, inner chamfer, outer chamfer, prime, charge, seat projectiles, box). I tallied my receipts and discovered that for giving up two weeks of evenings I had saved—wait for it—about $50 for the 2,000 rounds compared to the cost of buying milspec in bulk.

Speaking for myself, It was worth $50 for me to re-capture 2 weeks of evenings with my family. I gave my Dillon to a buddy and ever since, for "mass quantities," I shop price commercially and carefully (https://ammoseek.com/ (https://ammoseek.com/) http://www.gunbot.net/ (http://www.gunbot.net/) and am on several email lists for bulk ammo distributors).

XLR, however, is entirely different. With one possible exception (vide infra), nothing commercial "Match" shoots as precisely as my handloads, not Federal Gold Medal Match, not Black Hills Match, not even Lapua Match. I have selected components, powders, projectiles, charge weights, and "jump" based on OCW ladders proven at distance. My reloads outperform them all… except…

…the Berger line of ammunition (formerly Applied Ballistics Munitions), https://bergerbullets.com/product-category/ammunition/ (https://bergerbullets.com/product-category/ammunition/), the brainchild of the well-known ballistician Bryan Litz. For the life of me I do not understand how they mass produce ammunition that shoots as well as my flake-by-flake meticulous handloads. That said, my reloads beat the very high price of the Berger ammunition—for example, .338 Lapua with Berger's 300gn Hybrid OTM Match runs about $5/rd, (Lapua 300's are about $7/rd) not quite twice what my equivalent reloads cost. What is your time worth?

I hope this has been helpful.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: JoeZ on January 07, 2020, 08:29:44 PM
I agree with Mark ^^^

I used to reload mass quantity also but with pricing like 51 cents per round of American made 308 or 28.5 cents for 223, you can almost not reload for that. https://ammo.com/ammo-on-sale

To reload as a hobby or to perfect a round in a bolt gun makes more sense.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: JoeZ on January 07, 2020, 08:34:28 PM
Just as a funny side note, I remember getting Portuguese 308 ball delivered to my house for $120/1000. That's 12 cents a pop...literally.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 08, 2020, 12:29:12 AM
Just as a funny side note, I remember getting Portuguese 308 ball delivered to my house for $120/1000. That's 12 cents a pop...literally.
Stack it high and deep!
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 08, 2020, 08:45:17 AM
Just as a funny side note, I remember getting Portuguese 308 ball delivered to my house for $120/1000. That's 12 cents a pop...literally.


:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Hearing that hurts.  At least in the pocketbook.  :cowboy:

That Port is good stuff.  Really good.  I may have a stash of it myself.  And fine brass at that.  I pick it up off the floor at matches all the time because it is "un-reloadable."  Not.

Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Immaculatam Hostiam on January 08, 2020, 08:47:12 AM
Mark79, Bonaventure, JoeZ, thanks for your input and links. It does help.

Very good points about some bulk ammo being worth buying rather than reloading which really wouldn't save you much more if anything...

Would .270 Winchester be worth reloading or should I stick to buying in bulk? Regarding the reloads, I would be completely satisfied if the reloads have about the same performance as Remington CoreLokt. Are there reasonably priced reloading equipment that can make reloads with that level of performance?

How about .357 magnum?
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 08, 2020, 08:57:57 AM
Would .270 Winchester be worth reloading or should I stick to buying in bulk? Regarding the reloads, I would be completely satisfied if the reloads have about the same performance as Remington CoreLokt. Are there reasonably priced reloading equipment that can make reloads with that level of performance?

.270 Win is not a military caliber, so not sure if buying "in bulk" is all that available; at least at a discount.  Further, given that that cartridge is more generally a "hunting cartridge," it seems ammo makers extract a premium.  As such, that's a decent caliber to consider reloading for.  Also, from your criteria above, just about any single-stage press should suit your needs, along with the components I've described above.  
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 08, 2020, 09:03:03 AM
How about .357 magnum?

When I recently picked up a wheel gun in that caliber, I didn't even bother looking at commercial ammo.  As I already had all the components to reload, I simply went to the LGS and picked up a set of titanium carbide dies (no lube required) in .357 Magnum, along with some Starline brass and three boxes of differing weighted bullets.  Chose a powder, and loaded up a few ladders for each bullet weight.  Tested at the range, and selected the best combination.  I'm not going to be using this in competition, so for me, good enough is good enough.  By being able to reload, I have the ability to be a lot more selective, and the process will pay for itself in the long run.  
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 08, 2020, 09:06:35 AM
My neighbour reloads his 270 WIN rounds with Barnes bullets. These are strictly used for deer hunting, and from what he has shown me, the results are impressive (and tasty!)

It all depends on how much you shoot your 270. They are not one of the cheaper rounds north of 49 so folks are a bit more sparing. :cowboy:
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 08, 2020, 09:21:43 AM
Well then… you are straddling the fence, needing both "mass quantities" (plinking) and "precision" (non-magnum rifle cartridges that shoot flat and still reach out at a distance).

As a competent reloader, I would approach "mass quantities" with a progressive reloading press (e.g., pick your price point with the Dillion line https://www.dillonprecision.com/ (https://www.dillonprecision.com/) ), but approach "precision" with a high-end single-stage coaxial reloading press (e.g., Forster https://www.forsterproducts.com/ (https://www.forsterproducts.com/) ) and a bevy of high-end (viz., expensive) accoutrements (e.g., magnetic restoration scale https://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/sartorius-magnetic-scale-is-fast-ultra-precise/ (https://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/sartorius-magnetic-scale-is-fast-ultra-precise/) ).

In the decades when I was active in "3-Gun" competition, I typically shot 1,000-4,000 rounds per month in practice. I decided to reduce my costs, so I scrounged my brass and was gifted brass and reloaded it all. It took me about 2 weeks of evenings to reload about 2,000 rounds (clean, lube, re-size, case-length trim, de-lube, inner chamfer, outer chamfer, prime, charge, seat projectiles, box). I tallied my receipts and discovered that for giving up two weeks of evenings I had saved—wait for it—about $50 for the 2,000 rounds compared to the cost of buying milspec in bulk.

Speaking for myself, It was worth $50 for me to re-capture 2 weeks of evenings with my family. I gave my Dillon to a buddy and ever since, for "mass quantities," I shop price commercially and carefully (https://ammoseek.com/ (https://ammoseek.com/) http://www.gunbot.net/ (http://www.gunbot.net/) and am on several email lists for bulk ammo distributors).

XLR, however, is entirely different. With one possible exception (vide infra), nothing commercial "Match" shoots as precisely as my handloads, not Federal Gold Medal Match, not Black Hills Match, not even Lapua Match. I have selected components, powders, projectiles, charge weights, and "jump" based on OCW ladders proven at distance. My reloads outperform them all… except…

…the Berger line of ammunition (formerly Applied Ballistics Munitions), https://bergerbullets.com/product-category/ammunition/ (https://bergerbullets.com/product-category/ammunition/), the brainchild of the well-known ballistician Bryan Litz. For the life of me I do not understand how they mass produce ammunition that shoots as well as my flake-by-flake meticulous handloads. That said, my reloads beat the very high price of the Berger ammunition—for example, .338 Lapua with Berger's 300gn Hybrid OTM Match runs about $5/rd, (Lapua 300's are about $7/rd) not quite twice what my equivalent reloads cost. What is your time worth?

I hope this has been helpful.

You know, there is some middle-ground between 3-gun competitions and XLR, right? :cowboy:

From Zero to Dillon can be a bit of a leap, both in costs and knowledge.  But a buddy of mine has done it, so not impossible.  Not too long ago, I looked at getting a Dillon (can't remember if it was the 550 or the 650) for loading 9x19.  However, after doing the math, IIRC, I figured it would take at least ~9000 rounds before it even came close to paying for itself.  Didn't even factor in the time it would take to load all of that.  I didn't shoot enough to justify its cost, and came to the same conclusion that, at least for the time being, purchasing in bulk was the better route. 

Also, a lot of what I reload for is service rifle, and while I'm sure the Dillon setup is top-notch, I have a difficult time trusting a progressive (read: my ability to run same).

Two other things to consider. 

First, if buying in bulk/mass quantities, generally speaking, not only are these in military calibers (e.g., 9x19, 7.62 NATO, 5.56 NATO), but they are almost always FMJ.  Last I checked, I wasn't a signatory to the Hague convention, and see no reason to limit myself to it.   Being able to reload broadens one's bullet selection in just about any caliber.

Second, what prices/availability are today does not mean what they'll be tomorrow.  I recall not too long ago when there was really no ammo available.  At least not without having to donate a kidney to finance same.  Those days could come again.  Further, depending on where one lives (e.g., California), ammo restrictions are the gun-grabbers next tool.  Thus far, ammo components are not being attacked on the same level.  It therefore just makes good sense to have to the tools and know-how necessary in the event that some day ammunition is in short supply, but you may still be able to "roll your own."
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 08, 2020, 09:52:24 AM
You definitely covered the middle ground well.

I agree 100% with what you and Kazimierz said about .270—no bulk pricing and commercial is expensive. That said, the math works out similarly for .270. Since most (not all) hunters only fire a few boxes of ammo per season, even a modest reloading set-up would take years (a lifetime?) to recover the cost. I took a different approach regarding .357 Mag. For me, the balance of time and money prompted me to buy commercial. Since I had no brass on hand, buying commercial provided me not only ammunition, but also a source of brass (once expended). I'll admit that time weighed heavily in that "calculus."

As you say, reloading does somewhat mitigate chokepoints on ammo availability (you know, the "reasonable gun control" of ammo import bans, ammo taxes, ammo registries, and ammo purchase limitations—all of which have been implemented in some jUSA jurisdictions).

And, of course, there is just plain old "prepping."

I share your spurning of progressive presses for reloading accurate ammo.… Yet… There are even PTR (Precision Tactical Rifle) champions who use heavily-modified Dillons  to produce their competition and practice ammo. That's not for me. Single-stage coax!

Since you mentioned "ladders" and I mentioned "OCW," I thought it would be good to give Immaculatam Hostiam (Should I use the dative case since he is the indirect object? :-) ) this reference:

Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight Load Development..
http://www.ocwreloading.com/ (http://www.ocwreloading.com/)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: klasG4e on January 09, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
If you liked that page, you can see the entire comic here: http://judaism.is/h0Ɩ0cαųst.html#talesoftheh0Ɩ0h0αx (http://judaism.is/h0Ɩ0cαųst.html#talesoftheh0Ɩ0h0αx)

The comic is really well done, so well done that the artists went to jail.

A bit more background on this truly hilarious iconic "underground" masterpiece on the h0Ɩ0h0αx.  Michael Hoffman claims (3rd paragraph into the article) to be the true author and I believe him.  (If I'm not mistaken the one providing the illustrations was one going by the name of A. Wyatt Mann.)  As for the absolutely injustice of the two gents that went to jail for merely distributing the work, Michael has preserved the story here for posterity: https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2010/02/tales-of-h0Ɩ0h0αx-and-denmarks-anti.html (https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2010/02/tales-of-h0Ɩ0h0αx-and-denmarks-anti.html)

Here is an important follow-up article to the story.  The 2 lads got sent up the river big time merely for possessing, publishing, and distributing hilarious (uh, er, rather in the words of the state: "racially inflammatory") material: https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2015/01/legal-judgment-against-distributors-of.html (https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2015/01/legal-judgment-against-distributors-of.html)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 09, 2020, 10:03:45 AM
I share your spurning of progressive presses for reloading accurate ammo.… Yet… There are even PTR (Precision Tactical Rifle) champions who use heavily-modified Dillons  to produce their competition and practice ammo. That's not for me. Single-stage coax!

Point of clarification: I do not spurn progressive loaders because of any inherent inability to produce accurate ammo.  I shy away from progressive loaders when loading for service rifles (e.g., M1 Garand, M14 clone, AR-15), all of which are gas guns and have floating firing pins, wherein a single primer seated slightly proud could result in an out-of-battery ignition, or a slight overcharge in powder could damage a gas system. Not good.  I tend to hand-prime and individually weigh the charge for each cartridge when loading for service rifles.  This isn't to say that a Dillon (or other progressive presses) need be avoided; I just choose for my own reasons to use a single-stage press, and I don't load enough handgund ammunition to justify getting a second progressive press.  YMMV.  
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 09, 2020, 10:08:20 AM
Point of clarification: I do not spurn progressive loaders because of any inherent inability to produce accurate ammo.  I shy away from progressive loaders when loading for service rifles (e.g., M1 Garand, M14 clone, AR-15), all of which are gas guns and have floating firing pins, wherein a single primer seated slightly proud could result in an out-of-battery ignition, or a slight overcharge in powder could damage a gas system. Not good.  I tend to hand-prime and individually weigh the charge for each cartridge when loading for service rifles.  This isn't to say that a Dillon (or other progressive presses) need be avoided; I just choose for my own reasons to use a single-stage press, and I don't load enough handgund ammunition to justify getting a second progressive press.  YMMV.  
Ahhhhh!
I prime cases by hand.
http://www.xxicsi.com/super-precision-click-head-br-priming-tool.html (http://www.xxicsi.com/super-precision-click-head-br-priming-tool.html)
(http://nebula.wsimg.com/ac1e752e57629838b1c8bc2fe3c7dded?AccessKeyId=D665AA0C95BD1D877538&disposition=0&alloworigin=1)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 09, 2020, 10:24:34 AM
Since you mentioned "ladders" and I mentioned "OCW," I thought it would be good to give Immaculatam Hostiam (Should I use the dative case since he is the indirect object? :-) ) this reference:

Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight Load Development..
http://www.ocwreloading.com/ (http://www.ocwreloading.com/)

In the above link, Newberry states: "I cleaned the rifle, and shot two fouling shots...."

This brings up an interesting point, one of which I'm not sure if there is a correct answer.  Also, this is in relation to precision rifle shooting (not necessarily service rifle).

There seems to be two schools of thought.  The first is the above, wherein a cleaned barrel needs to be fired a few times to create some fouling in the barrel. Only upon building up this fouling can it be expected to shoot in a consistent, repeatable manner.  Obviously, if one is shooting a match, where many shots may be fired in a single day, this method seems to make sense.  The bore is only cleaned periodically, and thus there is always some fouling contained therein, even on cold-bore shots.   

The second school of thought, and one advocated by certain snipers, including Carlos Hathcock, was that the first cold-bore shot is the one that counts, and as such, it must always be taken from a cleaned barrel.  As one "student" of his relayed, Hathcock would meet him once per day at the range (this was on a military base), wherein he would take only a single shot at a target, noting the weather conditions and where the shot landed relative to point-of-aim.  After that one shot, the student was instructed to go back to the armory, and thoroughly clean the bore of the rifle.  The student would come back the next day, and repeat.  This was done for several weeks/months until the student had built an extensive D.O.P.E. for that rifle/cartridge combination.

I suppose there is a third school of thought, which is as described in the below video, which is to clean only with a solvent after every shoot; no brushes.

From a practical standpoint, my shooting falls into either the first or third school.  As I don't have quick access to a range, it would take quite some time to build a D.O.P.E. using the second school of thought.  That being said, I have not had a chance to compare either of these methods with one another to see which one is actually better. 

https://youtu.be/ltpIdTieQT8
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 09, 2020, 10:28:15 AM
Ahhhhh!
I prime cases by hand.


I've found the RCBS Universal Primer to be more than adequate.

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/priming-tools/hand-tools/universal-hand-priming-tool-prod54261.aspx (https://www.brownells.com/reloading/priming-tools/hand-tools/universal-hand-priming-tool-prod54261.aspx)
(https://cdn-us-ec.yottaa.net/53ff2f503c881650e20004c9/www.brownells.com/v~4b.10a/userdocs/products/p_100010299_1.jpg?yocs=p_)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 09, 2020, 10:36:14 AM
In the above link, Newberry states: "I cleaned the rifle, and shot two fouling shots...."

This brings up an interesting point, one of which I'm not sure if there is a correct answer.  Also, this is in relation to precision rifle shooting (not necessarily service rifle).

There seems to be two schools of thought.  The first is the above, wherein a cleaned barrel needs to be fired a few times to create some fouling in the barrel. Only upon building up this fouling can it be expected to shoot in a consistent, repeatable manner.  Obviously, if one is shooting a match, where many shots may be fired in a single day, this method seems to make sense.  The bore is only cleaned periodically, and thus there is always some fouling contained therein, even on cold-bore shots.    

The second school of thought, and one advocated by certain snipers, including Carlos Hathcock, was that the first cold-bore shot is the one that counts, and as such, it must always be taken from a cleaned barrel.  As one "student" of his relayed, Hathcock would meet him once per day at the range (this was on a military base), wherein he would take only a single shot at a target, noting the weather conditions and where the shot landed relative to point-of-aim.  After that one shot, the student was instructed to go back to the armory, and thoroughly clean the bore of the rifle.  The student would come back the next day, and repeat.  This was done for several weeks/months until the student had built an extensive D.O.P.E. for that rifle/cartridge combination.

I suppose there is a third school of thought, which is as described in the below video, which is to clean only with a solvent after every shoot; no brushes.

From a practical standpoint, my shooting falls into either the first or third school.  As I don't have quick access to a range, it would take quite some time to build a D.O.P.E. using the second school of thought.  That being said, I have not had a chance to compare either of these methods with one another to see which one is actually better.  

https://youtu.be/ltpIdTieQT8
I have tried the different schools and have not found a statistically significant difference among the results. There may be a difference, but, if so, is lost in the "noise" of my abilities.
Also, it sure is convenient not having to clean so frequently. :-)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 09, 2020, 01:38:19 PM
With respect to cleaning, what are your thoughts gentlemen on boresnakes? Personally I have found them to clean very well indeed when used with Hoppes gun cleaning solvent. I avoid also, esp for the 22 LR, the cheaper dirtier ammos. I stick with Federal and CCI in general for bulk shooting. I still await to try Hornady's 22 LR hollowpoints (much larger cavity than other HPs). Still hath I kicking around American Eagle ans some Aguila.
I have also undertaken a hollowpoint expansion hobby and a round nose to flat nose conversion a la sandpaper for solid lead bullets. Just have to wait for better health and spring to arrive to try everything. Too cold to muck about with rimfires. Or frankly anything at the moment up here! Minus 30 and colder on either scale is nippy at best. And AKs are prohibited weapons in the Peoples Republik of Canuckistan. :cowboy:
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 09, 2020, 02:50:46 PM
I have rarely used bore snakes. Based on that minimal experience, I think they are OK, but I didn't become a "convert."

Rods, brushes, jags, and patches are my routine. I have used the whole gamut of products and, for the last several years, have stuck with the KG-1/KG-2/KG-12 products: https://shop.kgcoatings.com/kg/product-category/cleaning/ (https://shop.kgcoatings.com/kg/product-category/cleaning/)

Since I began using that product line, I have not had to resort to Butch's Bore Shine for copper removal.

Remember, I am a reprobate about gun cleaning, so take my advice with a grain of lead salt. When I used to shoot 1,000-4000 rds/month I would go months between cleaning marathons. In one sense that is a tribute to the reliability of my preferred competition guns. 

Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 09, 2020, 03:44:24 PM
I have rarely used bore snakes. Based on that minimal experience, I think they are OK, but I didn't become a "convert."

Rods, brushes, jags, and patches are my routine. I have used the whole gamut of products and, for the last several years, have stuck with the KG-1/KG-2/KG-12 products: https://shop.kgcoatings.com/kg/product-category/cleaning/ (https://shop.kgcoatings.com/kg/product-category/cleaning/)

Since I began using that product line, I have not had to resort to Butch's Bore Shine for copper removal.

Remember, I am a reprobate about gun cleaning, so take my advice with a grain of lead salt. When I used to shoot 1,000-4000 rds/month I would go months between cleaning marathons. In one sense that is a tribute to the reliability of my preferred competition guns.
I will never come close to shooting your volume of ammo! If I did, I would probably use the traditional approach. I do like using patches as a finishing touch though. I found also not all boresnakes are equal. Pays not to cheap out. :cowboy:
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 09, 2020, 04:16:09 PM
...what are your thoughts... on boresnakes?

I have a few in .30 cal, but have never used them. 

From what I recall reading, though... make sure that whatever cord is attached to the snake, that it is of good manufacture; I've read threads on other boards where the cord broke with the snake in the bore, and they're not easy to get out. 
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 09, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
I have a few in .30 cal, but have never used them.  

From what I recall reading, though... make sure that whatever cord is attached to the snake, that it is of good manufacture; I've read threads on other boards where the cord broke with the snake in the bore, and they're not easy to get out.
Had one 12 gauge boresnake that was plain useless, in terms of pulling it through. Bought a Realavid after that, for all my calibres thereafter, and what a difference. Have a few Hoppes Viper ones too for heavier clean up duties.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 09, 2020, 07:06:06 PM
I will never come close to shooting your volume of ammo! If I did, I would probably use the traditional approach. I do like using patches as a finishing touch though. I found also not all boresnakes are equal. Pays not to cheap out. :cowboy:

3-Gun proficiency requires that kind of dedication. Our local 3-Gun group does some weird (dare I say, "unrealistic"?) courses of fire, so weird (like the spinning mini-ferris wheel with clay pigeons as targets) that I stopped competing in 3-Gun, but we have a really amazing PTR (Precision Tactical Rifle) group. We have at least 5 nationally ranked and sponsored shooters, so I am not the "big frog" in that pond. Your jaw would drop watching them—mine does every time. I am competent, but not at all in their league.

PTR does not typically require the same volume of fire (whether in practice or competition), so I am probably burning about half a case per month.

BTW, if you have any small or recoil shy women in your family, these are a solid deal at $229:
https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model-81-32-auto-pistol-standard-grade/ (https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model-81-32-auto-pistol-standard-grade/)
They are only .32 ACP, sort of an anemic cartridge, but Speer Gold Dot (https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/ammunition/gold-dot/gold-dot-handgun-personal-protection/23604gd) (for expansion) or Buffalo Bore +P hard cast flat nose (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132) (for penetration) are reasonable choices for personal defense.

They are available elsewhere (https://www.classicfirearms.com/beretta-mod-81-pistol-surplus-used-good-very-good/) for $199, but appear to be of inferior cosmetic condition.  For an extra $30 why not get a nicer looking piece for the ladies you love?

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-admq3scrtq/images/stencil/500x659/products/7647/18193/F1BER81STDX__34025.1565725271.gif?c=2)
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: klasG4e on January 09, 2020, 09:42:39 PM
  For an extra $30 why not get a nicer looking piece for the ladies you love?

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-admq3scrtq/images/stencil/500x659/products/7647/18193/F1BER81STDX__34025.1565725271.gif?c=2)
I'm new to this thread, but I assume that this would be in addition to some pepper spray, and perhaps a good taser device or would these things in your opinion be more likely in many situations to end up jeopardizing the woman even more?
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 09, 2020, 10:25:10 PM
Defense using a gun results in fewer injuries to the defender than any other method of defense, running away, or submitting and doing nothing.…

Except in the case of defense against a bear attack. Bear spray has higher rate of non-injury than firearms.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 09, 2020, 11:31:16 PM
One thing leads to another… as in this: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/01/top-10-firearms-of-the-decade-2010-2020-video/ (https://www.ammoland.com/2020/01/top-10-firearms-of-the-decade-2010-2020-video/)

led to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMsxyzL_ls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMsxyzL_ls)


and then this: https://kitbadger.com/8-6-creedmoor-the-fix-by-q/ (https://kitbadger.com/8-6-creedmoor-the-fix-by-q/)

I think the "Best 10" article is too heavily skewed to pistols.

I think the Desert Tech SRS-A2 (https://deserttech.com/srs.php) and American Rifle Company Mausingfield (https://www.americanrifle.com/shop/product/mausingfield-bolt-action-2) and Archimedes (https://www.americanrifle.com/shop/product/archimedes-bolt-action-138) should have made the list.

https://youtu.be/oKjBBM4OTPo

https://youtu.be/wMW6RxWzyfA
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 10, 2020, 01:17:53 PM
I'm going with the BIG 13.2mmSR TuF Mauser… https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/first-antitank-rifle-cartridge-132mm-tuf/370681 (https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/first-antitank-rifle-cartridge-132mm-tuf/370681)
(https://content.osgnetworks.tv/firearmsnews/content/photos/First-AntiTank-Rifle-Cartridge-4.jpg)

Thanks, but after watching the below, I think I'll stick with the 50 BMG designed by John Moses Browning.  :cowboy:

https://youtu.be/_ovHGvT4f9k
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 10, 2020, 02:30:51 PM
So… 20mm is out of the question?

http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm (http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm)

https://youtu.be/a9NxHj1R04g
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on January 10, 2020, 02:45:29 PM
^--- Does it come with its own MRAP?
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 10, 2020, 02:54:46 PM
And for all you lottery winners out there… 3D wind mapping and ranging!
https://www.trijicon.com/products/category/trijicon-ventus (https://www.trijicon.com/products/category/trijicon-ventus)

(https://www.trijicon.com/uploads/page_content/VentusDoppler_1.jpg)

https://youtu.be/idLG4oN4o8U



Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 10, 2020, 03:57:01 PM
Shoot, I still even had the proper opportunity to give my night vision monocular a proper shakedown. ;)  Havent won the lottery either but we be working on it :laugh1:

Thermal imaging equipment would be another cat's pyjamas. I read we have a feral hog problem up here on the Canadian prairies. No need to butt in on the Texas eradication. Lots of good pork brisket to be had, if dem wild oinkers are not infested with parasites and the like.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 10, 2020, 11:07:10 PM
Shoot, …
"Shoot"?  You're funny!
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Mark 79 on January 11, 2020, 12:49:51 AM
Here's an informative video with high speed image analysis, explanation of the use of pistons (a.k.a. boosters), and a preview of the next-generation Maxim prototype.

https://youtu.be/LZ__Uq6dlJY
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Kazimierz on January 11, 2020, 09:26:12 AM
"Shoot"?  You're funny!
Well it does keep me a little saner :laugh1:
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 08, 2021, 12:10:14 PM
Download and print out a hard copy while you can.

RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP M16-/M4-SERIES WEAPONS

https://eagledef.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/fm.pdf
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Incredulous on February 08, 2021, 12:40:34 PM
Here's an informative video with high speed image analysis, explanation of the use of pistons (a.k.a. boosters), and a preview of the next-generation Maxim prototype.

https://youtu.be/LZ__Uq6dlJY
Ooohh... (crying)... I miss Mark :facepalm:
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 08, 2021, 01:17:59 PM
Ooohh... (crying)... I miss Mark :facepalm:

Yup.

Sigh....

(Sound of some beer being poured onto the floor).

Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: SimpleMan on February 08, 2021, 03:11:45 PM
3-Gun proficiency requires that kind of dedication. Our local 3-Gun group does some weird (dare I say, "unrealistic"?) courses of fire, so weird (like the spinning mini-ferris wheel with clay pigeons as targets) that I stopped competing in 3-Gun, but we have a really amazing PTR (Precision Tactical Rifle) group. We have at least 5 nationally ranked and sponsored shooters, so I am not the "big frog" in that pond. Your jaw would drop watching them—mine does every time. I am competent, but not at all in their league.

PTR does not typically require the same volume of fire (whether in practice or competition), so I am probably burning about half a case per month.

BTW, if you have any small or recoil shy women in your family, these are a solid deal at $229:
https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model-81-32-auto-pistol-standard-grade/ (https://aimsurplus.com/beretta-model-81-32-auto-pistol-standard-grade/)
They are only .32 ACP, sort of an anemic cartridge, but Speer Gold Dot (https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/ammunition/gold-dot/gold-dot-handgun-personal-protection/23604gd) (for expansion) or Buffalo Bore +P hard cast flat nose (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132) (for penetration) are reasonable choices for personal defense.

They are available elsewhere (https://www.classicfirearms.com/beretta-mod-81-pistol-surplus-used-good-very-good/) for $199, but appear to be of inferior cosmetic condition.  For an extra $30 why not get a nicer looking piece for the ladies you love?

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-admq3scrtq/images/stencil/500x659/products/7647/18193/F1BER81STDX__34025.1565725271.gif?c=2)
What is this spucatum tauri, "Federal Firearms License Required"?  Do they single out this specific gun for some reason?
Nice-looking little pistol, looks to be about the size of my EDC Ruger LC9, which conceals very nicely in my pants pocket without imprinting (Sticky Holster, in its utter simplicity, one of the finer things ever invented).  I keep it loaded with seven Prvi Partizan (Serbian) 9mm hollow points.

I have two women I "love", my 90-year-old mother who is sharp as a tack, but is blind and wouldn't carry a gun even if she weren't, and I will myself to have caritas for the mother of my son, who has chosen mortally sinful concubinage with a man not her husband.  I'd want to see either one of them be able to protect themselves in a dangerous situation.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 08, 2021, 03:18:33 PM
What is this spucatum tauri, "Federal Firearms License Required"?

That ad is more than a year old; doubtful any are for sale anymore.

Regardless, as with all handguns (and most, but not all, long guns) shipped interstate within the United States, a FFL01 is required to accept delivery.  In the case of that ad, if you were to put in an order, it would have to be shipped to a FFL01, who then notifies you when it arrives.  You then visit the FFL01, fill out an ATF Form 4473, have a background check done through NICS, and if all clear (and depending upon the laws of your particular state), the FFL01 transfers said weapon to you. 
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: SimpleMan on February 08, 2021, 03:26:43 PM
That ad is more than a year old; doubtful any are for sale anymore.

Regardless, as with all handguns (and most, but not all, long guns) shipped interstate within the United States, a FFL01 is required to accept delivery.  In the case of that ad, if you were to put in an order, it would have to be shipped to a FFL01, who then notifies you when it arrives.  You then visit the FFL01, fill out an ATF Form 4473, have a background check done through NICS, and if all clear (and depending upon the laws of your particular state), the FFL01 transfers said weapon to you.
Been there, done that.  Bud's Gun Shop in Lexington KY does a great job and has an amazing selection at fair prices.  I've been wanting to take my son to the Ark Encounter between Cincinnati and Lexington (that would be a road trip of several days), great fossil-digging area nearby in southern Ohio that puts the lie to evolution, and I told him I'd like to stay in Lexington overnight and go to their range in addition to shopping.  There is a cluster of budget-priced hotels near Bud's on I-75.
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: Bonaventure on February 19, 2021, 03:03:58 PM
Download and print a hard copy for future reference.

(https://i.ibb.co/RPRHXqH/392b4cbbf0b24f92.png)

https://tinyurl.com/5bsjsx94
Title: Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
Post by: clarkaim on March 08, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
Great short vid.

I will add one caveat though...   When it is said... "There is no higher level than here.  The best shooters in America come out [to the CMP National Matches at Camp Perry] each year and aim to be the best of the best."   This is not true.  How do I know?  'Cause I've competed there, and I'm no where near good, let alone the best!  

:cowboy:

This is on my checklist for 2020.

Enjoy.

https://youtu.be/7AEuewtFQBE
yeah, me too, twice.  that being said, just because you (and me as well) are not the best, no way implies that the best aren't there.  they are  I was one of the better ones, tho, as a former state champion service rifle shooter.   I was also a U.S. Marine 30+ years ago  the best is typically their rifle team, and yes, they are at Camp Perry   every year.