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Author Topic: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics  (Read 2716 times)

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Offline Bonaventure

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Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
« on: October 14, 2019, 01:16:46 PM »
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #1 on: October 15, 2019, 12:18:11 PM »
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #2 on: October 18, 2019, 10:26:31 AM »
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    • [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.75)]PRIMARY ARMS 1-8×24: AN IN-DEPTH REVIEW[/color]


    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.75)]THE SPR: AR GUERRILLA SNIPER RIFLE[/color]
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    On the Subject of Marksmanship
    « Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 02:55:58 PM »
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    • Darryl Davis – On the Subject of Marksmanship, MILITARY, February 1998, pp.18-19:

    Quote
    Rifle marksmanship is a civilian attribute which is alien to the military environment. It must be introduced into the military by force and can be kept in the military only by ongoing active measures, else it will be eradicated and replaced by equipment familiarity.

    – 14th Iron Law of Marksmanship

    The military does not teach rifle marksmanship. It teaches equipment familiarity. Despite what the officer corps thinks, learning to shoot a rifle is not like learning to drive a car. Instead, it is like learning to play the violin. You can have coherent-appearing results after equipment familiarity training, but to get the real results, you keep plodding on. The equipment familiarity learning curve comes up very quick, but then the rifle marksmanship continuation of the curve rises very slowly, by shooting one careful shot at a time, carefully inspecting the result, and the cause.

    How are we doing with rifle marksmanship? By Vietnam, wasn’t everything beyond 200 meters abandoned to crew-served weapons?

    During Vietnam, troops pulled back from the line for R&R were tested to reveal that they could, on average, pump out 300 rounds a minute at a target 50 meters away at a rifle range, and they would average one hit per minute. During the American Revolution, the enemy advised their officers that even at over 200 yards the American riflemen will hit with their first shot, so officers should conduct themselves accordingly. Also that these riflemen could reach as far as 300 yards.

    As flintlock riflemen can pump out a maximum of only four shots per minute, it is obvious that Vietnam troopers have 75 times the firepower of the flintlock riflemen of the Revolution. This is in terms of muzzle statistics. In terms of target statistics, the flintlock shooter has four times the firepower of the M16 user because he has the skill to make every shot hit and the M16 user cannot hit more than once per minute.

    https://armyreservemarksman.info/2009/09/20/subject-of-military-marksmanship/

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    Offline Bonaventure

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    To .223 or not .223?
    « Reply #4 on: October 26, 2019, 08:35:51 AM »
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    • Quote
    The .223 round is a marginal performer against humans. Although it offers advantages over handgun rounds or shotgun rounds, you must be careful to not expect too much.  

    ~Gabriel Suarez, The Tactical Rifle, p. 40 (1999)

    Quote
    The large wound cavity of the 55gr is produced by the bullet fragmentation (usually at the cannelure), which occurs only if impact velocity is at least 2800fps.  Such velocities may be expected only within 150yds (for 20" barrels) and within 75yds for 16" barrels.  After farther ranges, no bullet fragmentation will occur and the rounds lethality (marginal at best) is significantly reduced.

    The .223 is also a poor penetrator, which is good or bad depending on its intended use.  You'll be surprised to learn that the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP better perforate walls, care doors, and windshields.  The .223 simply breaks up too easily (it was designed to fragment without Geneva Convention-prohibited (sic-actually Hague Convention) hollowpoint construction).

    ~Boston T. Party, Boston's Gun Bible (revised), p.9/5 (2002)
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #5 on: October 26, 2019, 11:25:44 AM »
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    • The 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO are approximately equal in effectiveness against soft targets from about 75 (12.5: barrel) to150 (20" barrel) yards.  Beyond that the 7.62 NATO prevails.
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    Offline Jews Did 911

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #6 on: October 26, 2019, 05:38:39 PM »
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    • Dry fire your rifle.

    Dry fire ... dry fire ... dry fire ... and do it some more.
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    And the Lord said to me: A conspiracy is found among the men of Juda, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. They are returned to the former iniquities of their fathers, who refused to hear my words: so these likewise have gone after strange gods, to serve them: [...]
    - Jeremias 11:9-15

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #7 on: December 22, 2019, 07:21:24 PM »
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    • While I prefer the 308 as a battle rifle or DMR cartridge, I've field dressed several whitetail shot and killed by the 223. My young sons are trained on the AR15 using a red dot sight and a 50gr varmint round. I've seen both lungs destroyed (bullet did not exit), near spine hits that incapacitate, and a heart destroyed all at ranges from 30 to 200 yards. Every deer they have hit was killed. Although I must say for ranges beyond 300 yards the performance drop is unacceptable. For a smaller person or for CQB there is no better platform than an AR15 (for us lowly civilians) if one uses the proper ammunition. FMJ is for practice fellas.

    For grown men, use a scoped 308 DMR for the better range and ammunition commonality. Yes they are heavy, but suck it up buttercup, hunt with it, practice with it, know it intimately. 

    The OP is an excerpt from Fred's guide to becoming a rifleman and was a central part of the foundation of the Project Appleseed (of which I am a senior instructor). We teach traditional American marksmanship and I have a altered course which teaches precision marksmanship if any one is interested check out https://appleseedinfo.org/ or contact me.
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    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #8 on: December 22, 2019, 07:53:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: JoeZ on December 22, 2019, 07:21:24 PM
     FMJ is for practice fellas.

    And I believe that is the ammo both Boston and Suarez are referring to with the above quotes. 

    I don't know of any 5.56 that isn't FMJ (even the 'Green Tip" penetrators are FMJ).  And FMJ is about the only .223 Rem ammo one is going to find in bulk.  Otherwise, bring a wheel-barrow full of FRN's if you want to stack non-FMJ deep.

    OR.... start getting the components and rollin' yer own. 

    I hear the 62gr SP-BT's are the Bees Knees in that regard.

    YMMV
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #9 on: December 23, 2019, 03:16:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on December 22, 2019, 07:53:27 PM
    And I believe that is the ammo both Boston and Suarez are referring to with the above quotes.  

    I don't know of any 5.56 that isn't FMJ (even the 'Green Tip" penetrators are FMJ).  And FMJ is about the only .223 Rem ammo one is going to find in bulk.  Otherwise, bring a wheel-barrow full of FRN's if you want to stack non-FMJ deep.

    OR.... start getting the components and rollin' yer own.  

    I hear the 62gr SP-BT's are the Bees Knees in that regard.

    YMMV
    Hornady Frontier carries 5.56 mm rounds in a few hollowpoint variations. It will be spring though before I will be able to try them out. Supposed to be a cold winter up here in Alberta, or at least parts thereof. Still have to sight my Ruger Ranch 5.56's new scope.
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    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: On the Subject of Marksmanship
    « Reply #10 on: December 29, 2019, 07:11:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on December 23, 2019, 11:02:40 AM
    For the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force, this is most likely true...  For the Marine Corps, however, it's a different breed altogether.  

    For starters, every Marine is a rifleman - from the mess hall attendant to the scout sniper.  I didn't serve in Vietnam, as I wasn't even born yet, but I did serve 8 years on active duty from 1996-2004.  During those 8 years, every Marine was required to qualify with the M16 A2 service rifle on a KD range with the last qualification period on the 500 yard line with open sights...yeah, 500 yards with open sights.  I'm pretty sure nothing has changed since, with the exception of the improved GI service rifles.    

    That last sentence of the article is total BS...  I can put 10 rounds in the black on a "B" Modified Target at 500 rounds with the M16 A2...open sights - and so can 80% of the Marines I served with.  

    I'd be happy to duel it out with ANY goofball and a flintlock rifle against my M16 A2, anytime and anywhere...      

    Well, I'm not about to dispute what the Marines do, but at the end of the day, I'm not a Marine.  Nor Army/Navy/Airforce, for that matter.  So, if I'm ever in a firefight, odds are, not only will I more than likely be by myself or maybe with one or two others, I won't have any backup, artillery support or a medivac to whisk me away to a field hospital.  In short, what works for the military, and the Marines, may not work all that well for me.  In that regard, and as Boston T. Party says several times in his Boston's Gun Bible, 5.56/.223 really shouldn't be the caliber of choice. 

    And while I do not question your ability to get shots on target at 500 yds with an M16 A2, the effectiveness of that round at that range is simply not something I would feel all that comfortable with.  Granted, while I obviously wouldn't want to take one to the head at that range, even the least bit of cover repels the round.  For example, I recall several years ago shooting out to ~600 yds with a friend of mine.  We were shooting at newly painted iron gong; I with my .308 and he with his .223.  And while I would say that the .223 may have been more accurate than my .308, when I hit the gong, it moved, made a solid report and left a mark we could easily see with our spotting scope.  Not so much for the .223; other than hearing an ever-so-slight report, the gong didn't move nor were there any visible markings from the impact.  I'll just leave it at that.

    That being said, don't get me wrong... I've got several rifles chambered in .223 and enjoy them a lot.  One of them is an HBAR AR in A2 configuration.  First time I used it in a CMP match, got the silver medal below. 

    :cowboy:
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #11 on: December 29, 2019, 09:56:11 PM »
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    •  The terminal ballistics of 5.56 NATO v. 7.62 NATO FMJ have been exhaustively explored.

    The short version—Against soft targets, without barriers, 5.56 NATO M193 out of an M16 v. 7.62 NATO M80 FMJ out of an M14 (22" bbl) have approximately equal terminal ballistics to about 200 yards when the M16 has a 20" barrel and to about 150 yards when the M16 has a 14.5-16" barrel. This holds true because the primary wounding effects of the M193 are yaw and fragmentation. As velocity falls from shorter barrels, the fragmentation effect is quickly lost and the yaw effect degrades less quickly. Slightly less effective terminal ballistics are evident for the 5.56 NATO M855, but there is a gain in penetration.

    Bullets have been designed to expand more (e.g., the huge variety of JSP and JHP projectiles), but penetration through soft tissue and barriers is severely degraded.

    For brevity, in the above comparison I held the 7.62 NATO cartridge and barrel length fixed. You can run a full matrix of 5.56 v. 7.62 barrel lengths and projectiles, but the trend is too similar to make the effort.  You can, of course, search the internet for the full matrix of data.

    Anyone want to talk about 6.5 Grendel?
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #12 on: December 30, 2019, 03:04:35 PM »
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    • Great short vid.

    I will add one caveat though...   When it is said... "There is no higher level than here.  The best shooters in America come out [to the CMP National Matches at Camp Perry] each year and aim to be the best of the best."   This is not true.  How do I know?  'Cause I've competed there, and I'm no where near good, let alone the best!  

    :cowboy:

    This is on my checklist for 2020.

    Enjoy.

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #13 on: December 31, 2019, 10:30:35 AM »
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    • 80,000 psi and steel/brass hybrid (metals of different dielectric constants).

    You first!

    https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Marksmanship: Back to the Basics
    « Reply #14 on: December 31, 2019, 03:23:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on December 31, 2019, 10:30:35 AM
    80,000 psi and steel/brass hybrid (metals of different dielectric constants).

    You first!

    https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/ammo/277-sig-fury-hybrid-case-design/

    And another new round.  So many firearms, so little time.

    However, sometimes I think the Mausers simply got it right the first time with their 7mm.  
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