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Offline SeanJohnson

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Help Me Understand Bitcoin
« on: December 05, 2020, 06:53:43 PM »
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    • How do you use it?  Is it a good and safe place to place to move assets?  Is it legal?
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #1 on: December 05, 2020, 07:01:19 PM »
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    • It's too difficult for me to explain and I don't even fully understand it myself despite using it for a few years. You'd have to read a whole guide to get a decent grasp on it I think.

    It's not really a good place to move assets IMO. Transactions are very slow and quite pricey, and the value of it varies too wildly--you have no guarantee that your assets will be worth nearly the same even if you converted them back to cash. On that note, you're liable for capital gains tax if you sell your BTC back into cash at a higher price than you bought it for.

    It is legal.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #2 on: December 05, 2020, 09:16:26 PM »
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    Offline Tallinn Trad

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #3 on: December 06, 2020, 01:24:12 AM »
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    • What does legal mean in a country that has fraudulent elections? Where judges refuse to look at clear evidence.

    I don't have bitcoin for 2 simple reasons. 

    1.  A large amount of it is owned by a handful of people. 

    2.  When you really need it to survive it will no longer be usable.  Physical assets are better.  

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #4 on: December 06, 2020, 01:30:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tallinn Trad on December 06, 2020, 01:24:12 AM
    What does legal mean in a country that has fraudulent elections? Where judges refuse to look at clear evidence.

    I don't have bitcoin for 2 simple reasons.

    1.  A large amount of it is owned by a handful of people.

    2.  When you really need it to survive it will no longer be usable.  Physical assets are better.  



    There are still rich and poor, in dollars and in Bitcoin. The early Bitcoin adopters have already sold off a lot of their "stash" over the years to buy their mansions, sports cars, etc. It becomes harder and harder for any one person or group to control the market/price. But remember, there are always rich people, and rich people can buy bitcoin like anything else.

    I would say the supply of Bitcoin is much more spread out (evenly divided between rich and poor) than any fiat currency.

    I agree about survival however. In a real collapse, Bitcoin would disappear as there would be no more electricity or computers, or ways to spend them. Gold has a track record going back to the earliest days of Man on earth. Bitcoin, not so much.

    But there is a hierarchy, from greatest to least:

    Preps (food/water/medicine/equipment/seeds/protection/communication/etc.) > Gold & Silver > Bitcoin > physical fiat currencies > digital (in-the-bank) fiat currencies

    If your preps are already in order, and you have gold/silver/90% junk silver for small transaction, physical cash on hand -- then sure, add Bitcoin to your basket of holdings, as part of a balanced breakfast.

    Just don't fill up on ding dongs at breakfast, or you might crash before lunch :)
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #5 on: December 06, 2020, 07:25:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 06, 2020, 01:30:30 PM
    There are still rich and poor, in dollars and in Bitcoin. The early Bitcoin adopters have already sold off a lot of their "stash" over the years to buy their mansions, sports cars, etc. It becomes harder and harder for any one person or group to control the market/price. But remember, there are always rich people, and rich people can buy bitcoin like anything else.

    I would say the supply of Bitcoin is much more spread out (evenly divided between rich and poor) than any fiat currency.

    I agree about survival however. In a real collapse, Bitcoin would disappear as there would be no more electricity or computers, or ways to spend them. Gold has a track record going back to the earliest days of Man on earth. Bitcoin, not so much.

    But there is a hierarchy, from greatest to least:

    Preps (food/water/medicine/equipment/seeds/protection/communication/etc.) > Gold & Silver > Bitcoin > physical fiat currencies > digital (in-the-bank) fiat currencies

    If your preps are already in order, and you have gold/silver/90% junk silver for small transaction, physical cash on hand -- then sure, add Bitcoin to your basket of holdings, as part of a balanced breakfast.

    Just don't fill up on ding dongs at breakfast, or you might crash before lunch :)
    I tried to read that "white paper" on Bitcoin, but it is WAY over my head --- I am technical up to a point, but I'm not THAT technical.  I will just take it on faith that, yes, it works, it is both a store of value and a medium of exchange (for those who are willing to accept it), and it might be worth looking into.  For some reason, a local convenience store chain sells Bitcoin at its ATMs.  I might buy a little after the first of the year, when I take one of my distributions.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #6 on: December 06, 2020, 08:50:50 PM »
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    • So far as I can tell, Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency that will be rejected by 99.99999% of merchants on the planet.

    I can't imagine walking into Walmart with a single $19,000 Bitcoin to buy a loaf of bread, and the cashier accepting it (and giving me some kind of mini-bitcoin change, or calling in the armored car to give me change in dollars).

    Or, in SHTF, anyone on the planet being willing to accept it for anything.

    I get that Bitcoin is not tied to the USD or to any central bank.  That's great.  But it doesn't make Bitcoin very liquid or practical for really anything.

    You might as well walk into Walmart with a bar of palladium.

    Surely I am missing something.  Seriously.  What is it?

    What is the benefit of Bitcoin?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #7 on: December 06, 2020, 11:30:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 06, 2020, 08:50:50 PM
    So far as I can tell, Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency that will be rejected by 99.99999% of merchants on the planet.

    I can't imagine walking into Walmart with a single $19,000 Bitcoin to buy a loaf of bread, and the cashier accepting it (and giving me some kind of mini-bitcoin change, or calling in the armored car to give me change in dollars).

    Or, in SHTF, anyone on the planet being willing to accept it for anything.

    I get that Bitcoin is not tied to the USD or to any central bank.  That's great.  But it doesn't make Bitcoin very liquid or practical for really anything.

    You might as well walk into Walmart with a bar of palladium.

    Surely I am missing something.  Seriously.  What is it?

    What is the benefit of Bitcoin?
    Bitcoin can be had in fractional units.  One millibitcoin is roughly $19, and one satoshi (one millionth of a Bitcoin) is roughly 2 cents.  You would not ordinarily buy "one Bitcoin" --- I know I wouldn't.  Couldn't afford it, for one thing.  Sure do wish I had bought a few hundred of them back in the day!

    One idea I liked a few years back, and almost bought some of them, was the American Liberty Dollar --- a dollar-like private currency backed by gold and silver in a warehouse in Idaho, the banknotes actually being warehouse receipts for that bullion, and the coins being made out of silver or gold.  As I understand it, the founder (one Bernard von NotHaus) got in trouble with the feds, first, for creating a parallel currency (that was sheer BS), and secondly, the coins too much resembled silver dollars (and they did, to an extent) and unsuspecting shopkeepers thought that's what they were.  There was something about a certain IQ percentile of the US population not being intelligent enough, or sophisticated enough in money-handling, to understand that these were not legal tender. (No surprises there, not these days.) The warehouse receipts in no way, shape, or form looked anything like US currency.

    I have a small (very small, wouldn't even fill a small bank bag) quantity of pre-1964 silver coins, as well as some silver dollars, to use as negotiable tender if we ever have an SHTF situation and federal money becomes worthless.  But I can see, with today's educational levels, and lack of awareness of "what money is and how it works", that it would be very difficult to explain to the average American "you see, THIS coin is worth much more than just ten cents, it was minted prior to 1965, contains real silver --- not just base metal --- and it's actually worth $1.75, not ten cents".  The people I run into on a daily basis, you'd just get blank stares.  Most people living today have no memory of money actually being specie that is worth something in itself.

    I would hasten to add, though, that while the Constitution gives the federal government the power to coin money, it says nothing about that coined money actually having any intrinsic worth related to its face value.  I'm not saying that is a good thing, I'm just stating the fact.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #8 on: December 07, 2020, 01:56:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 06, 2020, 08:50:50 PM
    So far as I can tell, Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency that will be rejected by 99.99999% of merchants on the planet.

    I can't imagine walking into Walmart with a single $19,000 Bitcoin to buy a loaf of bread, and the cashier accepting it (and giving me some kind of mini-bitcoin change, or calling in the armored car to give me change in dollars).

    Or, in SHTF, anyone on the planet being willing to accept it for anything.

    I get that Bitcoin is not tied to the USD or to any central bank.  That's great.  But it doesn't make Bitcoin very liquid or practical for really anything.

    You might as well walk into Walmart with a bar of palladium.

    Surely I am missing something.  Seriously.  What is it?

    What is the benefit of Bitcoin?
    It sees very little legitimate(it's widely used by crooks) usage as an actual currency, if you exclude it being used to purchase other cryptocurrencies. I think it's a speculative investment for the vast majority of people who buy any.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #9 on: December 07, 2020, 07:20:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 06, 2020, 08:50:50 PM
    So far as I can tell, Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency that will be rejected by 99.99999% of merchants on the planet.

    I can't imagine walking into Walmart with a single $19,000 Bitcoin to buy a loaf of bread, and the cashier accepting it (and giving me some kind of mini-bitcoin change, or calling in the armored car to give me change in dollars).

    Or, in SHTF, anyone on the planet being willing to accept it for anything.

    I get that Bitcoin is not tied to the USD or to any central bank.  That's great.  But it doesn't make Bitcoin very liquid or practical for really anything.

    You might as well walk into Walmart with a bar of palladium.

    Surely I am missing something.  Seriously.  What is it?

    What is the benefit of Bitcoin?
    Far as I can see, it pretty much is like a stock or commodity. Some guys are billionaires who invested a lot of money in it when it was only $100 or so, then sold when it got up to like $20,000. I was asking myself the same thing as you are above since it first came out and still haven't figured out how to actually use it for it's monetary value without selling it for cash - hopefully you're able to actually profit from it and not lose your shirt. 
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    Offline Tallinn Trad

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #10 on: December 07, 2020, 09:23:36 AM »
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    • If we are heading where it looks like we're are heading, and "the living are going to envy the dead", then a profound and deep faith, trust and hope in God is going to be FAR more valuable than bitcoin or gold coins or a wall of beans and other tinned goods.

    Rich men frequently throw themselves out of high buildings because they lost 90% of their net worth and are down to their last million dollars.  Dropping from 100 million to 2 million is too much for them to accept.  They are humiliated and kill themselves rather than face the shame of being "poor".

    I think if the world goes down the path of godless postmodernism and the economy collapses (which it looks most likely it will) then there will come a point that even people with assets will kill themselves because those assets won't give them any succour or comfort.

    The bible does not suggest that riches will assist you during the great tribulation.  Rather it suggests that clinging to the knowledge that God is in charge and will save the flesh of SOME of his elect will be the best chance of keeping your sanity and mental health.

    I see no plausible scenario where the electronic infrastructure survives for a person to accept or pay with bitcoin where other means of exchange are not also liquid, such as gold, silver, booze.

    Look at any economic crisis in the history of Europe and the United States and the one thing people ALWAYS find money for or exchange goods and a services for is alcohol.  
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #11 on: December 07, 2020, 08:30:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tallinn Trad on December 07, 2020, 09:23:36 AM
    I see no plausible scenario where the electronic infrastructure survives for a person to accept or pay with bitcoin where other means of exchange are not also liquid, such as gold, silver, booze.

    Point well made.  If there is no Internet (or rather, no feasible access to whatever remnants of it might remain), then Bitcoin is worthless.

    Look at any economic crisis in the history of Europe and the United States and the one thing people ALWAYS find money for or exchange goods and a services for is alcohol.

    Maybe some people, but for all practical purposes, I am a virtual teetotaler.  I will take a drink, or have a glass of beer or wine now and then, but it's not any significant part of my life, and I could never take another alcoholic drink the rest of my life, and I wouldn't even miss it.

    Now take away my ice water, coffee, or diet soda, and then we'd have issues.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #12 on: December 07, 2020, 08:38:23 PM »
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    •  Off topic, but, SimpleMan, diet soda is poison- (aspartame or splenda) you 'd be better off drinking booze
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #13 on: December 08, 2020, 01:54:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tallinn Trad on December 07, 2020, 09:23:36 AM
    If we are heading where it looks like we're are heading, and "the living are going to envy the dead", then a profound and deep faith, trust and hope in God is going to be FAR more valuable than bitcoin or gold coins or a wall of beans and other tinned goods.
    :cowboy:
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Help Me Understand Bitcoin
    « Reply #14 on: December 08, 2020, 01:56:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 06, 2020, 07:25:38 PM
    I tried to read that "white paper" on Bitcoin, but it is WAY over my head --- I am technical up to a point, but I'm not THAT technical.
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