CathInfo.com

So, you render a rash judgment in accusing others of rash judgment.

1) Praying for people inside or outside Catholicism, dead or alive doesn't change EENS.

Obviously, nothing anyone does or says or thinks changes EENS.  Yet it can, however, effect and undermine your BELIEF in EENS.  Then you conflate some nonsense, where again nobody has denied any but a single permutation or your random terms.

Praying for people inside "Catholicism" alive:  PERMITTED
Praying for people inside "Catholicism" dead: PERMITTED
Praying for people outside "Catholicism" alive: PERMITTED
Praying for people outside "Catholicism" dead: FORBIDDEN

But, as usual, you conflate everyting, run it together to make it difficult to unravel.  But, while I don't have much of what the world refers to as "emotional intelligence", I am a logician on the level of those "Vulcans" from science ficition, and I can smell fallacy and bad argument a thousand miles away, kindof like those drug-sniffing dogs can smell a gram of weed inside a sealed can of paint.

Let me get some clarification.  When Pope's are quoted, how is it determine when it becomes a law of the Church?


 What exactly made praying for deceased non-Catholic forbidden?
 

2) Puts limits on God.

Idiotic.  God puts limits on God, in the sense of God respects free will and will not force anyone to love Him, to believe in Him, nor ultimately to be saved.  So ... as has been pointed out myriad times ... saying that someone can't be saved while living in mortal sin, that's to put "limts on God" also?  Ironically, it's the BoDers who actually try to limit God, by pretending that God's Providence can be so constrained and so defeated by "impossibility" (verbatim contradiction of Sacred Scripture) that He must somehow provide "alternatives", or else He would be unfair and unmerciful.  I can't tell you how many people I have known who lost the faith after someone they loved experienced a tragedy because "How could a loving and merciful God allow this?"

But those who do love him show love by praying.  if you start making people not give prayers freely because they are afraid their prayers are actually sinful and forbidden by Pope's  then don't you see the problems that might cause?  The world does not run a logic alone.

3) Popes banned it because they were human.

Here's you in your genius are declaring the Popes wrong.  We've already mansplained to you that unless you MUST reject a non-infallible papal teaching due to it violating your conscience on account of some other papal teaching of higher authority, you are required to obey and to submit.  Only then are you permitted to publicly contradict and question it.

Huh?  I am not sure your mansplaining made anything clearer

3) You find it funny that I explain Catholic teaching on infallibility and then say we have to follow this?  Which is it?

Again, this shows your lack of comprehension, and this is probably the 5th time for this mansplaining.  You can't seem to contradict the difference between the absolute intellectual assent required of infallible teaching and the requirement to obey and to submit (aka "internal religious assent") to the teaching unless you cannot in good conscience do so, and then you may only contradict it publicly if it's doing harm to souls.  If you cannot come up with a solid reason to question a teaching, you must assent to it, i.e. agree with the proposition, assuming it to be true unless proven false.  But if you do find a solid reason to believe the non-infallible teaching was mistaken, then you may publicly contradict it only if it harms souls.  HINT:  not "liking" a teaching due to your emotional reasons does not qualify as having sufficient REASON to doubt it.

I really wish you would dumb down what you are trying to say because many times it is hard to follow your point.

4) I'm not "angry".  I'm emphatically and vigorously affirming Catholic teaching.  Period.  That's it.  I have zero emotion as I type out these posts.  None.  There's intellectual frustration, since the reasoning, the logic, is so clear.  There's wonder at how few people, even among Traditional Catholics, believes this core dogma of the Church.  But there's little emotion.  If I have any emotion, it's just in beginning to get upset that I have a few more hours of work I need to get done for my job tonight.

But if it was so clear, there wouldn't be these discussions.

So, "Catholicism" is not a mess.  What's a mess is the lack of faith, and the dying of the light of faith.  And I intellectually "rage, rage against the dying of the light".

I understand this really well.


But the Faith will never die.  If one person has it then it can grow again.  It kind of reminds me of the moving "The Neverending Story"  This just a light hearted comment please don't intellectually overanalyze it.  

Women tend to interpret everything as emotional.  I'm actually an almost-zero-emotion individual ... perturbed by nothing, angered by nothing.  So, at one point, my wife and I were watching an episode of a newer Star Trek series (one that isn't half bad).  There's an exchange in there between the new "Ohura", where she starts singing for no reason, and Spock questions her about why she's singing.  She responds that it's a way to relieve tension.  To which Spock responds:  "I find that the best way to diffuse tension is to apply rigorous logic." ... at which point my wife shouts out laughing and pointing at me saying "That's you."  I've been in situations where people were badly injured, once my brother has his skull broken, bleeding, barely hanging on to life, and I was the only one who was calm and cool, and able to take the action necessary to stabilize him, while everyone else came apart.  At one point, in an argument, my wife attacked me for not showing grief at the passing of my father and mother ... a complete slander.  Just because I wasn't constantly crying (though I did she some tears, which she didn't see), for her that's "no emotion".  See, I quickly realized that grieving and emoting did them no good whatsoever, and was selfish indulgence, so I set about immediately praying as much and as often as I could, going to Mass, having Masses offered for them.  This goes back to when I was in 7th grade, and at the time I was always extremely nervous about school, getting good grades, takign tests.  One day I show up and I must have missed the memo about a test, and the teacher starts passing them out.  Normally that would have sent me into a panic.  But the situation was so bad that ... I just threw up my arms and said to myself, "You know what.  At this point, it is what it is, and I can't go back in time and change it.  And getting nervous and in a state of panic will NOT help me do better during this test.  So I completely relaxed, let go, and resigned myself to the worst possible outcome ... getting a 0, an F, and bringing my entire grade down to a C.  In that state of relaxation, I was able to think clearly, remember stuff that I had not deliberately studied, and in a few cases, was able to guess answers in the earlier multiple-choice part of the test because of things I found later on in the test in the form of longer-form questions.  I ended up with a low A on it."  And that was the dramatic natural transformation of someone who had been prone to anxiety to someone who's completely impervious to it and indifferent.  And that of course can easily translate into something better in the spiritual life, resignation to God's will and the recognition that His Providence has everything under control, even if I do not.

Good story.  

I still wonder why you say stuff like this.

Such emotion, such bullshit, such emotional puke ... and such heresy and denial of faith.

What is it trying to accomplish accept to let out your rage, which is an emotion, and be hurtful? You might think attacking a person's writing is different than actually attacking some one, but to me and maybe others it feels the same.  

No I am not Martin Luther.  I would never throw a tantrum and leave.



I never underlined anything.  I copied and pasted from here.


https://www.drbo.org/chapter/46012.htm

I didn't know it would be so rashly interpreted.



Its a good fruits vs bad fruits thing.  My emotions/intuition are used by me to discern spirits.  I always try to find the positive spin because God is love.


Good.  But we can't claim as humans to know who is and is not in Purgatory.



Are you sure it was the praying that eroded faith  or was it the lack of True Charity, which includes patiently explaining over and over what Truth is without them feeling attacked, misunderstood, and unloved?



Not sacrificing anyone.  God will give more mercy in confusing times.  I think we can all agree these are very confusing times.

So ...

1) you don't have to "leave" like Luther did in order to adopt the same attitude where you quote a Baable verse out of context and claim that your interpretation of said verse contardcits papal teaching.

2) OK, so you didn't underline it, but apart from that, the point remains the same, that the passage refers to praying for those in Purgatory, and is entirely irrelevant to whether deceased non-Catholics COULD in fact be in Purgatory.  NOBODY denies that praying in general is an exercise of charity, but any potential charity toward the soul of a departed non-Catholic is outweighed in the judgment of the Pope and the Church by the harm done to people's belief in the dogma EENS.  You would then rightly attack the Church for not having funerals for ѕυιcιdєs.  What if that ѕυιcιdє was somehow saved (more likely than a non-Catholic being saved, since they could be not entirely culpable, or else could regret and repent ... but if they have the faith, they're in a position to repent) ... so the Church would be "un-chawitable" to not pray publicly for them, in case their souls made it and were in need, right?  There again, the Church's prudential judgment (to which you are bound) was that we don't pray for them because it could give the impression that there's a decent chance for ѕυιcιdє to be saved.  So ... I recalling serving a NO funeral when I was about 12, and it was that of a ѕυιcιdє, and the priest went on about how his suffering was now ended and that he was in a better place.  What if I believed that and then encountered extreme suffering later?  Why not punch my ticket to that "better place", right?  Which would be more "charitable", to massage the feelings of the family of the ѕυιcιdє, or else to deter someone else from going down the same path?  Myriad souls have been saved by the fact that those in desperate pain realized that ѕυιcιdє would not end their pain but make it immeasurably worse and make it last for eternity.

3) we absolute CAN claim to know who is NOT in Purgatory, since the Church teaches that there's no salvation outside the Church, and non-salvation precludes being in Purgatory.  While there might be some exceedingly rare cases of a deathbed illumination and salvation of someone who had been thought lost, the PRESUMPTION is in fact that they were lost.  We have no absolute knowledge of the matter, but presumption means that we think and act as if they were lost.  Period.  What part of the directive from the Holy Office doesn't register to your mind where Christians are not allowed to even say that Confucius COULD have been saved, but must answer that he and all over infidels ARE damned.  Not that they're "likely" damned, but ARE damned.  That's what presumption means.  I'm actually partly voilating that right now by speaking of presumptions, but I feel that I must to combat this heresy.

Oh, it's asolutely 1000% that praying for non-Catholics has contributed mightily to loss of faith in the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church, though it is cyclical, where it's both a cause and an effect, but it undoubtedly fuels it.

What would be the effect of, instead of seeing a Father Jenkins talking about how we should all pray for Queen Elizabeth, instead saying that "Sadly, Elizabeth died outside the Church, and we grieve for the loss of her soul.  That should be a reminder for us that we need to pray more and with greater zeal for the conversion of the Anglicans and other heretics."  That would have a tremendous effect on supporting the faith.  What, then?  Elizabeth spends a bit longer in Purgatory.  Who cares?  I have little doubt but that the joy she would experience in realizing that she had been miraculously saved would practically extinguish the fires of Purgatory and turn then into joy for her (St. Francis almost died of ecstasy when it was revealed to him that he would be saved) ... AND spending longer would be a most just punishment for having spent her entire life outside the Church and, as the head of a false religion, failing to return them to the True Church.  When millions of souls could have been saved had she cooperated with God's grace, and declared publicly the illegitimacy of the entire Anglican religion, giving a speech in which she denounced the crimes of Henry the VIII, discusssed how those evil motives deligitimize Anglicanism, and exhorted all to follower her back to the One True Church ... does she deserve a speedy removal from Purgatory while someone else who had done far less evil, just because he isn't famous like her and nobody knew he even died, perhaps on the streets as a homeless person ... that guy languishes til the end of time, forgotten, while Elizabeth gets a speedy pass because millions of faithless dolts are praying for her on account of her notoriety (in evil)?

Instead, because of this brainless emoting about "let's pray for [this, that, or the other heretic, apostate, moral degenerate]" ... and, as I said, it's more virtue signalling and presenting yourself as caring and empathetic than actual real praying ... because of this emoting, Traditional Catholics are deeply corrupted by religious indifferentism and lack of faith in EENS and the dogmatic teaching of Trent that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

See this, on Saint John Vianney: https://papastronsay.blogspot.com/2011/10/text-of-letter-prophesied-to-father.html

"Father Hermann Cohen's mother died
without receiving Holy Baptism.
In the eyes of the unwise
'she died as an unconverted Jewess'
in spite of the many prayers offered for her by her priestly son. ...

I have translated the following from his life
which will be of interest for all of us
who pray for souls that seem to live and die
without the grace of conversion.

Note that Fr. Hermann
had consecrated his mother to Our Lady
hundreds of times and offered many prayers for her salvation;
he never lost hope in his mother's cause.

A short time later, he confided to the Curé of Ars his disquiet about the death of his poor mother who died without the grace of Baptism. "Hope!" replied the man of God, "hope; you will receive one day, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception a letter that will bring you great consolation."

[the letter read]: ...

Hardly had the sacred suppliant ceased speaking, when a strong, powerful grace, came forth from the source of all graces, from the adorable Heart of our Jesus, and came to enlighten the soul of the poor dying Jewess; instantly triumphing over her stubbornness and resistances.

This soul immediately turned herself with loving confidence towards Him whose mercy had persued her as far as the arms of death and said to Him: "O Jesus, God of the Christians, God whom my son adores, I believe, I hope in Thee, have pity on me."

In this cry, heard by God alone and which came from the intimate depths of the heart of the dying woman, were enclosed the sincere sorrow for her obstination and for her sins, the desire of baptism, the express will to receive it and to live according to the rules and precepts of our holy religion, if she had been able to return to life.

This leap of faith and hope in Jesus was the last sentiment of that soul; it was made at the moment when she brought towards the throne of the divine mercy. Breaking away the weak bonds which held her to her mortal casing, she fell at the feet of Him who had been her Saviour (a moment) before being her Judge.

After having showed me all these things, Our Lord added:

"Make this known to Father Hermann; it is a consolation that I wish to accord to his long sorrows, so that he will bless, and have blessed everywhere, the goodness of the heart of my Mother and Her power over mine."

Fr. Isaac Mary Relyea recounts this story often. Gives me great hope.