Author Topic: Denied Burial (Read 4674 times)

poche · « **on:** January 07, 2015, 12:55:51 AM »

The girl, who died on 26 December, reportedly of sudden infant death syndrome, was refused burial in Champlan, south of Paris.

The mayor said priority had to be given to taxpayers.

The mayor of nearby Wissous, Richard Trinquier, described that decision as "incomprehensible" and said that he would offer a grave.

The girl's family lived in a camp in Champlan.

The mayor of Champlan, Christian Leclerc, was quoted by Le Parisien newspaper as justifying the decision by saying that his town was running out of burial space and that "priority is given to those who pay local taxes".

Local activists expressed outrage, with a spokesman for the regional association for solidarity with Roma and Romanians describing the decision as a case of "racism, xenophobia and stigmatisation".

Mr Trinquier, who is a doctor and had previously treated the baby's mother, said he had accepted the girl as he would have accepted anyone else, since "everyone has a right to a decent burial".

The girl is due to be buried on Monday.

The presence of Roma people from Eastern Europe has been a hot political issue in France.

It has one of the harshest policies in Europe towards Roma immigrants, regularly demolishing the camps that many of them live in, and deporting thousands every year.

The majority of France's 20,000 Roma live in makeshift settlements.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30670371

Nadir · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2015, 01:24:43 AM »

What infant pays taxes? That is a dreadful situation.

On another point: the baby didn't die of "sudden infant death syndrome", because that just means "the infant died suddenly" (unexpectedly.) It is no diagnosis at all. It means the authorities will not investigate what killed the baby.

poche · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2015, 04:31:07 AM »

This is a problem of racism against the Roma in France.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2015, 01:03:38 PM »

Quote from: poche

This is a problem of racism against the Roma in France.

No, it's a problem of aimless sentimentality in France. Those who say that foreign vagrants should be allowed free burial in a country where they don't belong and aren't welcome are the problem. It is false that everybody deserves a decent burial. Baptised Christians who don't die as public sinners or outside of communion with the Church have the right to be buried in consecrated ground. Pagans or what have you ought to be buried, yes, but not in somebody else's land. If I were travelling overseas to, say, Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands and I died there, I would have no right to be buried in Guadalcanal, being a foreigner to that land. If I brought my daughter and she died from a tropical disease there, she, too, would not have that right, being a foreigner to Guadalcanal as much as I am.

Laws are not based on niceness. If somebody thinks that he has a right because the alternative would require a situation that seems mean and a blow to his spirits, he is basically a lunatic. The principle that a law can only be enforced when doing so is a happy and warm occasion for all parties involved would obviously lead to the utter loss of all law and order. It's lunacy.

The gypsies should be deported with more energy than they have been heretofore. They have no business in France. For that matter, the Mohammedans should also be deported. First, the illegals. Then, the radicals. Then, those that remain who aren't willing to deny their religion forever. They, too, have no business in France. They can never be true Frenchmen.

Matto · « **Reply #4 on:** January 07, 2015, 01:27:56 PM »

When I saw the title of this post I thought it would be about a traditionalist denied burial at a Novus Ordo cemetery.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #5 on:** January 07, 2015, 01:47:45 PM »

Quote from: Matto

When I saw the title of this post I thought it would be about a traditionalist denied burial at a Novus Ordo cemetery.

No, it's about a child from a gypsy family (people who move into countries without registering, never paying taxes, and living on the fringes of society, surviving usually through petty theft and through swindling regular people -- people known to take pride in never accepting the customs of their host country and who are also known for kidnapping non-gypsy children) not being allowed burial at the expense of the tax-paying and registered inhabitants of the host country. Somehow, it has been suggested that the problem in the story is that the latter group must be fueled by a primal hatred.

Perhaps the one who suggested that as the problem has Asperger's syndrome or something and doesn't understand normal social dynamics, such that he makes wild speculations about hidden evil motives on the part of those that would otherwise be given the benefit of a good opinion. A lot of these left-wing theories sound like that to me. Imagine if one had an awkward and surly twelve year-old nephew. It's Christmas day, and your mother, his grandmother, is busy working in the kitchen. The boy lets the door open and a man off the street, dirty and reeking of marijuana, comes in and grabs a big handful of the pie sitting out, then laughs and runs away when noticed. Your mother is upset, since she was already somewhat tense to make sure everything is ready on time.

Then, your nephew says, "Grandma is angry because she's a covetous b**** who hates poor people !" You would probably want to smack the boy, and hopefully you had a brother who would not be upset if you did. When the story is retold to the boy's father, he would probably want to have his son tested to make sure that he doesn't have a mental disorder. After all, it sounds like something only a kid with Asperger's would say.

Basically, that's how poche and the left-wing in general operate. Drama queens, hell-bent on a mostly aimless quest to fix every imperfection in the world, with no regard to proportionality or achievability. Whenever you point out the impossibility of their goal (ending poverty/war/meanness/etc. forever), they say, "But shouldn't we just try ?!" Their moral imperatives are usually in reference to things that are patently unrealistic. They don't care about actually succeeding. It's all about sanctimony and envy. They're just satisfied that the people currently in power are removed so that they can make the decisions, so that they can "just try."

Liberalism is basically more like a mental illness than an actual ideology. It's societal HIV. It spreads through unwholesome practices and destroys all of society's immune functions. The end result is death of the defenseless body politic through the invasion of other pathologies, which make short work of a compromised system.

Nick · « **Reply #6 on:** January 07, 2015, 05:20:03 PM »

PereJoseph nails it again.

ggreg · « **Reply #7 on:** January 07, 2015, 05:33:44 PM »

Quote from: poche

This is a problem of racism against the Roma in France.

The Roma are scuмbags.

What business do they have being in France? What do they contribute to society? Integrate, contribute or leave.

poche · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2015, 11:15:08 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Quote from: poche
This is a problem of racism against the Roma in France.

No, it's a problem of aimless sentimentality in France. Those who say that foreign vagrants should be allowed free burial in a country where they don't belong and aren't welcome are the problem. It is false that everybody deserves a decent burial. Baptised Christians who don't die as public sinners or outside of communion with the Church have the right to be buried in consecrated ground. Pagans or what have you ought to be buried, yes, but not in somebody else's land. If I were travelling overseas to, say, Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands and I died there, I would have no right to be buried in Guadalcanal, being a foreigner to that land. If I brought my daughter and she died from a tropical disease there, she, too, would not have that right, being a foreigner to Guadalcanal as much as I am.

Laws are not based on niceness. If somebody thinks that he has a right because the alternative would require a situation that seems mean and a blow to his spirits, he is basically a lunatic. The principle that a law can only be enforced when doing so is a happy and warm occasion for all parties involved would obviously lead to the utter loss of all law and order. It's lunacy.

The gypsies should be deported with more energy than they have been heretofore. They have no business in France. For that matter, the Mohammedans should also be deported. First, the illegals. Then, the radicals. Then, those that remain who aren't willing to deny their religion forever. They, too, have no business in France. They can never be true Frenchmen.

They didn't mention the religion of the family but what was the public sin of this little girl that should keep her from being buried. What do they propose to do with the body in the meantime?
What about the Roma who have been in France for generations?

poche · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2015, 11:23:03 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Quote from: Matto
When I saw the title of this post I thought it would be about a traditionalist denied burial at a Novus Ordo cemetery.

No, it's about a child from a gypsy family (people who move into countries without registering, never paying taxes, and living on the fringes of society, surviving usually through petty theft and through swindling regular people -- people known to take pride in never accepting the customs of their host country and who are also known for kidnapping non-gypsy children) not being allowed burial at the expense of the tax-paying and registered inhabitants of the host country. Somehow, it has been suggested that the problem in the story is that the latter group must be fueled by a primal hatred.

Perhaps the one who suggested that as the problem has Asperger's syndrome or something and doesn't understand normal social dynamics, such that he makes wild speculations about hidden evil motives on the part of those that would otherwise be given the benefit of a good opinion. A lot of these left-wing theories sound like that to me. Imagine if one had an awkward and surly twelve year-old nephew. It's Christmas day, and your mother, his grandmother, is busy working in the kitchen. The boy lets the door open and a man off the street, dirty and reeking of marijuana, comes in and grabs a big handful of the pie sitting out, then laughs and runs away when noticed. Your mother is upset, since she was already somewhat tense to make sure everything is ready on time.

Then, your nephew says, "Grandma is angry because she's a covetous b**** who hates poor people !" You would probably want to smack the boy, and hopefully you had a brother who would not be upset if you did. When the story is retold to the boy's father, he would probably want to have his son tested to make sure that he doesn't have a mental disorder. After all, it sounds like something only a kid with Asperger's would say.

Basically, that's how poche and the left-wing in general operate. Drama queens, hell-bent on a mostly aimless quest to fix every imperfection in the world, with no regard to proportionality or achievability. Whenever you point out the impossibility of their goal (ending poverty/war/meanness/etc. forever), they say, "But shouldn't we just try ?!" Their moral imperatives are usually in reference to things that are patently unrealistic. They don't care about actually succeeding. It's all about sanctimony and envy. They're just satisfied that the people currently in power are removed so that they can make the decisions, so that they can "just try."

Liberalism is basically more like a mental illness than an actual ideology. It's societal HIV. It spreads through unwholesome practices and destroys all of society's immune functions. The end result is death of the defenseless body politic through the invasion of other pathologies, which make short work of a compromised system.

Approximately 400,000 Romani live in France as part of established communities. Additionally, the French Romani rights group FNASAT reports that at least 12,000 Romani, who have illegally immigrated from Romania and Bulgaria, live in unofficial urban camps throughout the country. French authorities often close down these encampments. In 2009, the government sent more than 10,000 Romani back to Romania and Bulgaria.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in_France

The vast majority of teh Roma who live in France are from established communities. By most standards of justice ( and by justiceI mean it in the sense as a cardinal virtue) they should not be considered as foreigners

poche · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2015, 11:51:18 PM »

The tragic case of a dead Roma baby refused burial in a Paris suburb has underscored the plight of the community in France, where supporters say they are a scapegoat for the country's ills.

The affair made headlines around the world, and was all the more poignant because the baby of just two and a half months died the day after Christmas from sudden infant death syndrome.

The local town of Champlan, just south of Paris, refused the family a burial plot, with the mayor reportedly saying that priority should be given to those who pay their taxes -- although he later denied this.

After nearly a whole day of conspicuous silence, top politicians then fell over themselves to condemn the case, with Prime Minister Manuel Valls saying it was an "insult" to France.

Even far-right leader Marine Le Pen criticised the decision, saying it showed a "lack of humanity".

But the president of the National Commission on Human Rights (CNCDH), Christine Lazerges, said the case was "the terrible proof that the Roma are the new scapegoat in France," which is suffering from high unemployment and a sluggish economy.

In its most recent report on racism in France, the CNCDH already voiced fears over the "trivialisation of racist comments about the Roma."

The European Union believes there are currently 10 to 12 million Roma throughout Europe, making them the largest minority on the continent.

A nomadic people whose ancestors left India centuries ago, the Roma have long suffered from discrimination and are frequently accused of carrying out petty crime.

But experts believe their plight is getting worse in France.

The CNCDH report showed that more than 87 percent of people in France believe the Roma are "a group apart" in society, a rise of 21 points since 2011.

This is much more than other ethnic groups such as people from North Africa (46 percent) and Asians (41 percent).

Polls also show that 85 percent of French people believe that Roma often exploit their children and 78 percent think they basically live off theft and petty crime.

- 'Criminality, deviance, cruelty' -

Tommaso Vitale, a researcher into Roma at the Paris-based Sciences Po University, said that France's own economic woes worsened the plight of minorities.

"The spectacle of misery in times of crisis is very sensitive in political terms," he said, with most Roma living in makeshift facilities on the outskirts of towns with little basic amenities.

Almost everywhere in Europe, the same question is being asked, he said. "Is Europe there to send us Roma or is it there to give us social policies to get out of this crisis?"

Eric Fassin, a social scientist at Paris University and author of a book about the Roma, said verbal attacks on the community had got steadily worse.

"But in the case of the Roma baby, for once, we found that we had gone a bit too far," he said.

Lazarges said the "public debate" in France had to change.

Successive governments have drawn fire for demolishing numerous camps and evicting families with children, although some in France have cheered the tough approach.

In August, a French court fined a member of parliament 3,000 euros ($3,600) for saying that nαzι dictator Adolf Hitler "maybe did not kill enough" Roma.

Vitale said the only way to start de-stigmatising the Roma was to change their image as an isolated community living in shanty towns on the fringes of society.

"Without that, nothing is possible. There will always be a stigma of criminality, deviance and cruelty."

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/roma-baby-case-highlights-communitys-plight-france-123806294.html#q7por0d

The picture at the top of this article showed a priest in black officiating at the funeral which was finally allowed.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2015, 12:12:30 AM »

Quote from: poche

They didn't mention the religion of the family but what was the public sin of this little girl that should keep her from being buried. What do they propose to do with the body in the meantime?

The religion is probably the gypsy religion, which is common with gypsies. It's not a question of sin, anyway. You seem to be arguing according to the assumption that a burial in any specific place is some kind of universal human right. Such a proposition is highly dubious. The fact of the matter is that gypsies are vagrants who are strangers to French society. French taxpayers owe them nothing, much less should they pay to bury them on French land.

Quote

What about the Roma who have been in France for generations?

They should either convert to the Faith and assimilate to French culture (i.e., abandon their "Roma" identity) or be deported. Gypsies do not live like normal Western people. They lie, cheat, steal, and all of their "communities" are itinerant and transient. As a distinct grouping, they belong to no particular place. They could set roots equally deep (i.e., not set at all) in any other place overnight if they were deported. Their existence is completely parasitic.

poche · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2015, 12:39:11 AM »

Quote:
What about the Roma who have been in France for generations?

They should either convert to the Faith and assimilate to French culture (i.e., abandon their "Roma" identity) or be deported. Gypsies do not live like normal Western people. They lie, cheat, steal, and all of their "communities" are itinerant and transient. As a distinct grouping, they belong to no particular place. They could set roots equally deep (i.e., not set at all) in any other place overnight if they were deported. Their existence is completely parasitic.

Where would you deport them to?

PereJoseph · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2015, 12:39:45 AM »

Quote from: poche

Approximately 400,000 Romani live in France as part of established communities.

They're just passing through. They could live anywhere and they would not have any claim of ownership or belonging in that place, at least not in any legitimate contest with the native inhabitants. I also dispute that any gypsy community is "established." The one thing well established about gypsies is that they are wanderers, thieves, and vagrants.

Quote

Additionally, the French Romani rights group FNASAT reports that at least 12,000 Romani, who have illegally immigrated from Romania and Bulgaria, live in unofficial urban camps throughout the country.

"Unofficial" urban "camps" sounds like a sly way of saying "poor neighbourhoods." Or are you saying that the French government is detaining the gypsies in urban camps ? If so, good. It seems like a pretty common sense approach, which is rather a breath of fresh air, I think.

Quote

French authorities often close down these encampments.

Oh, so they're squatter colonies. That seems to be par for the course. And I suppose you are suggesting that the just thing is for the French taxpayers to provide services and give benefits to these people, who wandered into France, contribute absolutely nothing to the country, and steal from Frenchmen.

Quote

In 2009, the government sent more than 10,000 Romani back to Romania and Bulgaria.

It sounds like they missed 388,000 -- according to your numbers -- because of an overly generous definition of legal immigrant. Too bad.

Quote

The vast majority of teh Roma who live in France are from established communities.

Well then it should be easy to find them and deport them.

Quote

By most standards of justice ( and by justiceI mean it in the sense as a cardinal virtue) they should not be considered as foreigners.

Where were they when the Marius and Julius Caesar conquered the Gauls ? Where were they when the Roman soldiers settled around their forts and towns ? Where were they when the Gallo-Roman bishops converted the pagans of the countryside, or when the Kings of the Franks converted and fought against the infidels, only later becoming crowned as emperors ? Where were they when the Frankish barons went to the Holy Land because God willed it, when the country was teeming with monasteries and convents, when the great cathedrals were built, or when Saint Louis led the procession through Paris with the Crown of Thorns ?

What about when Ste Jeanne d'Arc liberated the country from the English, or during the many wars against the English that lasted for almost a thousand years ? Where were they during the Revolution and the resistance against it ? Where were they during the great wars of the last century ?

Oh, that's right, they were in Central and Eastern Europe, where they were not welcome, doing what they do best, stealing, wandering, avoiding taxes and civic registration of any kind, and hiring themselves out as prostitutes.

Then they came to France within the past few hundred years, or in the past thirty or so for a large amount of them, where they proceeded to practice their well-known customs, namely stealing, wandering, avoiding taxes and civic registration of any kind, and hiring themselves out as prostitutes. Yet, you would suggest that Frenchmen, descendants of one hundred generations of labour, intermarriage, and countless struggles together, owe these interlopers -- who contribute nothing to France, preserve their old language and religion, and will be doing the same thing in one hundred years -- public benefits and governmental services ? And you claim that it's due to the cardinal virtue of justice, which pertains to recognising what is due and giving it ?

I'm afraid I can't see how you reason.

poche · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2015, 12:42:36 AM »

poche said:
They didn't mention the religion of the family but what was the public sin of this little girl that should keep her from being buried. What do they propose to do with the body in the meantime?

The religion is probably the gypsy religion, which is common with gypsies. It's not a question of sin, anyway. You seem to be arguing according to the assumption that a burial in any specific place is some kind of universal human right. Such a proposition is highly dubious. The fact of the matter is that gypsies are vagrants who are strangers to French society. French taxpayers owe them nothing, much less should they pay to bury them on French land.

The picture showed what appeared to be a priest officiating at the funeral. Apparently practicing the Catholic Faith isn't good enough for some people.