Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Catholic Bunker => Topic started by: Pax24 on October 18, 2025, 11:00:39 AM
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Hi all,
I am sharing this as simply a concept. The purpose isn't to attempt organizing any such model. Looking at the disorder of our society today I felt it might be helpful to visualize what a proper organic social order would look like. That way maybe we can move in that direction. Any such idea can only really work if it grew organically and over numerous generations. I just present this as a discussion piece.
https://trustthevillage.org/
I have attached the pdf.
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I'm very interested in (what are now being called) intentional communities. I'm somewhat involved in one myself. I think they are one of the surest ways to provide the proper social (and hopefully economic and political) environment in which our children can not just survive but flourish.
But practical problems abound.
Who purchases all the land necessary for the village? Where is it? Presumably one would need to purchase agriculturally zoned land, but agriculturally zoned land has significant restrictions for population density, which will make it very difficult to build a village-- neighbors are going to have to be a 10-15 minute drive from each other; the chapel too, etc.
I'm sure there are probably some places where such restrictions don't exist. Zoning laws are local after all. Just pointing out that this is a problem which poses restrictions on where you do this.
Not to mention the problem of financing it. If it's all granted or purchased by one person (more likely than it being purchased by a group of people), that person needs to be exceptionally moral to prevent him from becoming a tyrant or cult leader.
There is also the question of culture and economics. Everyone talks a big game until it's time to actually pack up, move to the middle of nowhere, give up the amenities of the big cities, and eek out an existence in subsidiarity. Family men need job security. If they don't have homesteading skills, what assurances are there that their neighbors will be both proficient and charitable enough to instruct and carry them? If it's a remote location what assurances are there that if it fails the man can work a living doing something else? Most people know they do not have the skill set--nevermind the courage -- to get in on the ground floor of a project like this.
Your best bet is to build such a community with choleric, industrious young men who've not yet set down roots, who've learned some trades already, and maybe even have some capitol to risk.
But where do the women come from? Will women be persuaded to pair up with these young men, who (from a typical female perspective) have built something anti-social and insular?
Haven't even started in with the problems of forming an independent chapel.
I think a more practical way to get started with projects like this is to seize existing, decaying civic infrastructure. Move to an already existent small town in a rural area where property is relatively cheap and the population is aging. Learn or be ready to learn construction skills so you can take advantage of abandoned properties for cheap. Make strategic connections to acquire political and economic power in these places, which can then be passed on through custom and inheritance. Be within an hour or a metropolitan area so people have a way to work if they can't make their own labor work for them.
The barriers to entry are much lower and less expensive. There are more fail-safes for those who are motivated but who prudently need to keep their options open.
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Traditional Catholics are much too small a percentage of the population for this to be practical.
A much better plan to do something kind of similar is to try to build up your local chapel. Help out with training altar boys, volunteer in the choir, try to organize clubs and devotions and home school co-ops. Work with the priest on these things.Try to get others involved.
That is going to provide the same sort of social support as the society you are envisioning, and it is easier because everyone is already there at the chapel and already believes in the same things as you, and already has a job so you don't need to worry about what people will do for a living once they get to your ideal village. It has most of the benefits and hardly any of the downsides of your plan. And if you can't get people at your chapel to join a sodality or serve Mass or get together for a reading club, then how on earth do you think you are going to convince them to move to the middle of nowhere and join your village?
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I like the concept, as I've proposed this before, where there's so much waste in the typical suburban model. Everybody on my street has a lawn mower that sits in the garage for all but 1-2 hours per week on average ... why can't you have a central barn/storage area where people could borrow it from and take it back (signing up on a schedule)?
I just think that the picture of a cathedral in the middle of 5 houses simply does not scale. You simply can't support the cost, both building cost and maintenance cost of such a thing without much more population around it.
Perhaps if you put a bunch of those plots in a flower-petal design around the central church, then you might be talking.
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All legitimate points. Again, it is meant as a model to explore the social order. There is nothing in the model that can not be adapted to a specific situation such as zoning laws. I live in a county that has no zoning restrictions so that wouldn't be a problem here. It can absolutely be adapted to an old town situation.
An independent Chapel isn't the ideal. This model is just assuming the perfect situation where the Church and civic authorities cooperate and encourage it. It simply functions as a inspiration of what could be.
It's good to compare it to our current social order to see just how far we are from the Catholic social order. It not about a utopia, its about examining the fundamental structure of the society we live in. That structure effects us on the natural plane. Supernatural builds on nature. Our Freemasonic social order was designed to disrupt our social relationships from the cradle. This model gives us a glimpse at how children would grow up surrounded by a strong Catholic social order like we once had.
You are right though. Most Catholics today would not have the formation, resources, virtues, or fortitude to implement this model in any meaningful way. It simply stands as a reminder of what a healthier society looks like.
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Traditional Catholics are much too small a percentage of the population for this to be practical.
A much better plan to do something kind of similar is to try to build up your local chapel. Help out with training altar boys, volunteer in the choir, try to organize clubs and devotions and home school co-ops. Work with the priest on these things.Try to get others involved.
That is going to provide the same sort of social support as the society you are envisioning, and it is easier because everyone is already there at the chapel and already believes in the same things as you, and already has a job so you don't need to worry about what people will do for a living once they get to your ideal village. It has most of the benefits and hardly any of the downsides of your plan. And if you can't get people at your chapel to join a sodality or serve Mass or get together for a reading club, then how on earth do you think you are going to convince them to move to the middle of nowhere and join your village?
I will reiterate. This is not meant to be something people create out of thin air. It's a discussion piece and nothing more. I'm in no way advocating that people move and start something like this with people they don't know. That is simply a recipe for disaster. I am also not in any way encouraging people to contact me to start something like this. Taking the model and discussing it with people you know is far more productive. It's not a solution, it's simply a visualization of something closer to a proper social order.
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I like the concept, as I've proposed this before, where there's so much waste in the typical suburban model. Everybody on my street has a lawn mower that sits in the garage for all but 1-2 hours per week on average ... why can't you have a central barn/storage area where people could borrow it from and take it back (signing up on a schedule)?
I just think that the picture of a cathedral in the middle of 5 houses simply does not scale. You simply can't support the cost, both building cost and maintenance cost of such a thing without much more population around it.
Perhaps if you put a bunch of those plots in a flower-petal design around the central church, then you might be talking.
Pointing out the inefficiency of modern life is a big point I am trying to make. Thumbs up!
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It's interesting for some people. Just understand that not all catholics have the same personality, abilities, or inclinations. The model isn't as interesting to someone with intellectual inclinations and interested in things like maths, computer science, etc.
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Interesting. Why we can not get along the root is not believing in The Incarnation. Christ gave us the model.
I was interested in my roots. My family from Bavaria. They left in 1847. I wanted to know how they lived and why they picked up their roots. I did google all my words and found an interesting article. You think I could find it again, nope. But in Bavaria most of the land was Catholic. The people were like hired hands and all took care of growing what was needed. they were self sufficient. They did not pay anyone for taxes. They simply took care of themselves.
Then the gov't, VIPs thought, hey, they don't pay taxes and oh, they are catholic, they are ignorant. They are not be as productive as they should be. Gradually the gov't got to the top of govern. They took the land and however. Industrialization came in. The Catholic Germans did not want to work next to a Protestant. Then we have the anti-clerical laws. Catholics soon had no church, no schools, no priest to give sacraments. Catholics were hated, ridiculed and you name it!
So, my family, stopped having children in 1842, and saved what they could, however that was, and left Bremahaven port in 1847, Mast ships known as Floating hells. In Pennsylvania and a year later had a child, 1848. Friends were there and in Ohio. by 1850 they were in Logansport, IN.
See how they got along! They suffered because: If Christ was hated, so will we. So, no matter how you stack things up, it is the same for now.
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There's a great Traditional Catholic book written about this same topic titled "The Framework of a Christian State" by Rev. E. Cahill. Imprimatur 1932. I have a hardcover copy. I strongly recommend seeking it out.
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There's a great Traditional Catholic book written about this same topic titled "The Framework of a Christian State" by Rev. E. Cahill. Imprimatur 1932. I have a hardcover copy. I strongly recommend seeking it out.
I have it on my shelf. Great book!
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It's interesting for some people. Just understand that not all catholics have the same personality, abilities, or inclinations. The model isn't as interesting to someone with intellectual inclinations and interested in things like maths, computer science, etc.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. No model appeals to everyone. If you are saying this model doesn't appeal to people of intelligence then I have to disagree with you. Intelligence is one thing but the use of it is quite another. There are intelligent people in every field of study and the most intelligent people have a broad knowledge of every subject. This model, which is based on a traditional social order, would take intelligence and use it for the proper end. Not to put people on the moon but to put people in heaven.
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Interesting. Why we can not get along the root is not believing in The Incarnation. Christ gave us the model.
I was interested in my roots. My family from Bavaria. They left in 1847. I wanted to know how they lived and why they picked up their roots. I did google all my words and found an interesting article. You think I could find it again, nope. But in Bavaria most of the land was Catholic. The people were like hired hands and all took care of growing what was needed. they were self sufficient. They did not pay anyone for taxes. They simply took care of themselves.
Then the gov't, VIPs thought, hey, they don't pay taxes and oh, they are catholic, they are ignorant. They are not be as productive as they should be. Gradually the gov't got to the top of govern. They took the land and however. Industrialization came in. The Catholic Germans did not want to work next to a Protestant. Then we have the anti-clerical laws. Catholics soon had no church, no schools, no priest to give sacraments. Catholics were hated, ridiculed and you name it!
So, my family, stopped having children in 1842, and saved what they could, however that was, and left Bremahaven port in 1847, Mast ships known as Floating hells. In Pennsylvania and a year later had a child, 1848. Friends were there and in Ohio. by 1850 they were in Logansport, IN.
See how they got along! They suffered because: If Christ was hated, so will we. So, no matter how you stack things up, it is the same for now.
Good post. Thanks for sharing. If I may add, the time period you speak of was one of the first communist revolutions. It was lead by enemies of the Church for the specific purpose of removing Catholics from the land. Our enemies know just how important that is in their plans to destroy the Church.
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The Founding Papers of the Catholic Land Movement
With an introduction by Dr. Tobias Lanz
Original preface by Hilaire Belloc
153 pages
IHS Press
(757) 423-0324
Reviewed by Dr. Peter Chojnowski
"So long as the legislative machine is controlled by and composed of the monopolists, all effort at restoring healthy economic life will fail."
The sobering quote above is from Hilaire Belloc's preface to Flee to Fields: The Founding Papers of the Catholic Land Movement, a collection of 10 thought-provoking essays by the leading lights of the movement, first published during the Great Depression and now re-issued by IHS Press. The new edition features an introduction by Dr. Tobias Lanz, and is thoroughly footnoted and richly enhanced with classic photos and illustrations.
The primary goal of the Catholic Land Movement was to provide skills, education, and, in the best conditions, financial aid to those families who were committed to an integrally Catholic life and who would produce food and primary goods - within a community grounded in faith - for their own sustenance. And it is with words of warning that Belloc prefaces this introduction to the Movement - an enthusiastic and unequivocal Agrarian manifesto. He offers a realistic assessment of the entire "Back to the Land" movement, and speaks to the paradoxes and unresolved tensions that pervade this compilation of essays. Belloc also points out that a reinvigoration of society - the logical fruit of any return to the most common form of life and occupation - can only be realized if the power of the State is dedicated to the common good, rather than the private good (read "bottom line") of those who finance the rulers of the State. Here Belloc draws attention to a point that evades most contemporary, even "conservative," political thinkers. The problem with our own times, and with the countries most of us live in, is that the State has been handed over to private interests. It is, therefore, counter-intuitive to believe that those who have access to the halls of political power will ever countenance a situation in which their monopoly on the resources of the nation is jeopardized. Belloc's words echo those of Arthur Penty, who stated that for a family to embrace farm life without price regulation and control on the part of the government would be tantamount to economic ѕυιcιdє.
In his introduction, Lanz compares the Catholic Land Movement to the American Southern Agrarians of the first half of the 20th century. Whereas Fr. John McQuillan - in his essay on the origins of the movement - points out that it began with the full support (moral, if not financial) of the British Catholic hierarchy in Glasgow, Scotland in 1929. The Scottish Catholic Land Association, soon complimented by similar associations in the Mid-lands and the North and South of England, opened a training center in 1931 for young men who wished to learn farming and to ultimately settle on the land. Fr. McQuillan became the parish priest of the surrounding district.
By 1934, the year of Flee to the Fields was first issued, significant numbers of young men, adopted by the respective Catholic Land Associations, were fully trained in every branch of farming. Some obtained their own family farms, while others became managers of farms. In addition to detailed descriptions of the British Catholic Land Movement and the support it received from popes, cardinals, and intellectuals, Flee to the Fields presents a theoretical defense of the "Back to the Land" movement that, in addition to Belloc, had such prestigious backers as G. K Chesterton and Fr.Vincent McNabb.
more:
https://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=697
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Who purchases all the land necessary for the village? Where is it?
Plenty of generational wealth "moguls" at my Church that could do this, but they won't.
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Indult Cat" Thanks for that!
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Doing research on modern education. Hint, almost all schools, even Catholic, have adopted the Prussian model of graded schooling. That model ingrains obedience above all else, even truth. I'm enjoying Joseph Moore's posts on the subject. Understanding this topic is vital to understand how VII happened without a push back.
https://yardsaleofthemind.wordpress.com/category/education-history/
https://yardsaleofthemind.wordpress.com/2024/01/31/catholic-schools-week-2024-pt-1/
Read through all his education section. It's really good and I love his sense of humor.
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I'm not sure what you are trying to say. No model appeals to everyone. If you are saying this model doesn't appeal to people of intelligence then I have to disagree with you. Intelligence is one thing but the use of it is quite another. There are intelligent people in every field of study and the most intelligent people have a broad knowledge of every subject. This model, which is based on a traditional social order, would take intelligence and use it for the proper end. Not to put people on the moon but to put people in heaven.
I mean personality. Specifically, I mean the kind of introverted and socially awkward who enjoys things like maths, coding, puzzles, schedules, etc. I don't know if you understand what I mean. But I think this is the kind of personality that would have the worst time in that type of society.
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Doing research on modern education. Hint, almost all schools, even Catholic, have adopted the Prussian model of graded schooling. That model ingrains obedience above all else, even truth. I'm enjoying Joseph Moore's posts on the subject. Understanding this topic is vital to understand how VII happened without a push back.
https://yardsaleofthemind.wordpress.com/category/education-history/
https://yardsaleofthemind.wordpress.com/2024/01/31/catholic-schools-week-2024-pt-1/
Read through all his education section. It's really good and I love his sense of humor.
Yes. John Dewey, the "father of American education" went to Prussia to learn and copy their method of sit down, shut up, color between the lines and do not think. See The Underground History of American education by John Gatto.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1099085.The_Underground_History_of_American_Education
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I mean personality. Specifically, I mean the kind of introverted and socially awkward who enjoys things like maths, coding, puzzles, schedules, etc. I don't know if you understand what I mean. But I think this is the kind of personality that would have the worst time in that type of society.
Personally, I don't think there was such a thing as "socially awkward" in a pre-industrialized society. It's a byproduct of the modern world.
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Yes. John Dewey, the "father of American education" went to Prussia to learn and copy their method of sit down, shut up, color between the lines and do not think. See The Underground History of American education by John Gatto.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1099085.The_Underground_History_of_American_Education
Yep, I've come across him too. I haven't read the book but I think his observations and research make a lot of sense. I suspect the graded school system is the back door the modernist used to subtly change the SSPX's position. We can't change God's fundamental arrangement of the social order without serious consequences. No matter how good the catechism classes are.
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Plenty of generational wealth "moguls" at my Church that could do this, but they won't.
Not that you would probably want them too either. In all truthfulness, this model likely means starting from scratch.