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Author Topic: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening  (Read 1223 times)

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Offline epiphany

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Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2022, 02:07:37 PM »
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  • we have done it all.

    These are my recommendations:
    - forget cattle.  You need a lot of land (5 acres per cattle,  unless you want to buy hay all the time), a big truck, a cattle trailer, and it is REALLY hard to butcher them yourself and you need a BIG freezer to store all the meat (God forbid you lose power). To breed them you have to feed a bull all the time when you only need him once a year.  They provide 5 gallons of milk a DAY+-.  Way too much for most families. and they require vet assistance for castration, shots, etc  If you really want cattle for meat, go cheap.  I guarantee, unless you are really into beef, you will not taste the difference.  We have had angus, longhorn, beef master, jersey, Holstein and all kinds of crosses.  they all taste like beef...  butcher before age 3 unless you want all ground beef then butcher at any age.  Make sure you get the horns off or they will tear up your fences.  If you get a jumper, he has to go right away or he will teach the others to jump.  that's a nightmare... we never had a bull, just borrowed a neighbors.

    - goats are great!  dual purpose, meat and milk.  whatever breed is best for your area.  Learn how to disbud (you do not want horns), castrate, give shots, etc on your own.  have 1 to 4 babies at a time.  can get 1 quart to 1 gallon of milk a day, depending upon the breed, which is perfect for a family.  uncut males taste terrible, so don't even try.  easy to butcher yourself, so no butcher costs. Any age is o.k. to butcher if you stew most of the meat. meat is great for stews, especially.

    - forget ducks.  they are smelly and messy because they need a pond, whether a kiddie pool or a real pond.  they also have a low egg to feed ratio because they eat more and waste more feed than chickens do.  The meat is fatty and they don't provide nearly the amount of meat as a dual purpose chicken.

    - chickens are great! If you get dual purpose birds (like orpington or barred rock), nipple drinkers and low-waste feeders.  Rhode Island reds were mean.  you will have to set up a light during winter months.  avoid wood chicken houses as they breed lice.  get a cheap foam incubator and hatch your replacements at least every 3 years, butchering the 4 year olds, as they start to lay less often at that age.  roosters get mean when testosterone kicks in, about age 1.5.  we butchered them by then.

    - Tamworth pigs, for sure!! docile, easy keepers.  can have 5 to 15 babies at a time.  can castrate yourself (uncut males taste terrible unless you turn all the meat into heavily seasoned smoked sausage).  they eat nearly anything, even better than chickens, and don't need much room.  Ours got much bigger than average size.  Grandma got to 700 lbs, while mamma was 600 lbs.  can butcher at any age and size (smaller is easier), and the meat is always good.  Better yet, hunting pigs is legal in most states year round, usually without a license.  A neighbor of mine quite literally jumps on them and hog ties them.  however, wild males taste horrible and its hard to tell male or female when hunting them.

    - we did not raise sheep, but our neighbor did.  He said the best tasting ones are blacks which don't need shearing.  He sure was right!  Bought 2 from him and they were the best lamb we have ever eaten. I don't know the breed name.  best when eaten before age 1.5.

    - forget turkeys.  the stupidest animals we ever raised, got sick a lot, and ate like horses.  the eggs were good, but only got them 6 months of 12.

    - forget meat rabbits unless you have no room for anything else.  We had californians and new zealands. I calculated it cost $15 in feed alone to raise a rabbit big enough to feed a family (in a stew), at about 1 year old.  And you have to keep all the breeders apart or they fight, eat each others babies, and get sick.  Hard to supplement with table scraps because you have to be careful what you feed them.  babies have to be brought inside during the cold months, taken out for feedings every 2 hours.  water lines/bottles freeze easily.  Lot of work.

    - garden for sure, using all the manure from your animals.  Goat, rabbit and sheep manure can go directly on the garden.  cow and chicken must cook for 3 to 6 months or it will burn the garden.  

    - orchard for sure.  learn to can.

    - learn to sew and mend.

    These are our experiences.  Good luck



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
    « Reply #16 on: January 07, 2022, 02:19:07 PM »
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  • What a great and informative post!  Thanks Epiphaney!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SolHero

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    Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
    « Reply #17 on: January 07, 2022, 02:37:38 PM »
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  • Maybe you already keep this in mind but just as important as learning which animals to keep and what to grow in your garden, you also need to learn how protect your animals and your garden. My chickens were often attacked by cayotes and racoons and my garden is often raided by wild bunnies and squirrels. Also be mindful of the weather and find(or develop) a calendar for your area to know what to sow at various times throughout the year.

    If you need heirloom and open pollinated seeds this is a good catholic company: St. Clare Heirloom seeds https://www.stclareseeds.com/garden-help/
    From their website:

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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
    « Reply #18 on: January 07, 2022, 02:49:59 PM »
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  • From my experience off-grid for 2 years:

    Heritage breeds like Barred Rocks, Rhode Islands etc for cold climates. They will be fine, the biggest thing with chickens is tending to foot injuries as this is a serious disease vector. Expect to get Neosporin (WITHOUT THE PAINKILLER THIS KILLS BIRDS) and stockpile it for birds. Get extra bandages too. Ensure you have some trees or a cool, shaded area during the summer. Do not get Cornish X, go with Freedom Rangers if you need a meat-oriented breed. I honestly think dual purpose is the way to go. Make sure you keep at least one hen that goes and stays broody (we have a mom that is broody basically half year and we eat the loss because ALL of her chicks live) and is a good mom. Having to warm water bottles for baby chicks and wrapping said water bottles so they don't kill themselves during the winter isn't fun (off grid). Just have a great mama hen.

    Rabbits are tricky, I agree with Epiphany. Especially during summer your losses will escalate unless you have a cool area that is out of sunlight. They are finicky animals and are best if you have a neighbor or someone you can barter with for feed. Free ranging/tractoring them isn't as good as broilers, especially due to heat sensitivity. Rabbits require a lot of work in general, even if you have an efficient cage system. Rabbits are the most retarded mothers and breeders as well. You will have mothers eat entire batches or not feed babies properly, especially with first time moms.

    If you can stomach it boil guts of almost anything you kill and feed it to chickens. Rockchuck and other invasive species are easy to trap/kill and will cut down on feed costs lol. If you're plinking then feed your birds.

    As for meat... I think you have to go the canning route. I agree with Epiphany yet again that freezers going out is just too costly and risky. As far as I see it locking into canning now and getting cans and Tattler lids AND extra seals is an inflation proof investment. Canning with Tattlers is cheaper than with metal lids and is probably going to save you money over freezers long term unless you have a very large electrical system and you are rich. I really wouldn't gamble.

    As for manure... This is one area where rabbits are king. Manure doesn't burn. I think with rabbits you have to have a complete system that integrates them or else they aren't worth it.

    As for orchard/garden... Pick something super easy and nutritious. Kale is a staple at my house, it basically requires no assistance and using arugula as a bait crop for insects keeps the bug pressure down (I will intentionally let some arugula bolt after harvesting as these will bait bugs well) and arugula is great in sandwiches to boot. Use kale stems in potato skillets and rice dishes where a rough texture is good for contrast and the leaves for canning soups. Arugula you can just fly through, it's insane. Grow lots of it because you'll never have enough. Go for Red Russian kale in extreme hot/cold climates, it's very tolerant and the strain I've been going with is good till around 0 degrees F. Braindead easy to raise. I think with a garden you want easy to raise things that have complementary plantings that are tasty or bug pressure becomes a SERIOUS issue. If you're going to do tomatoes you need a real plan. Don't waste your time otherwise.

    EDIT: It's worth noting if you are into 3d printing you can cut down on chicken food waste significantly by designing your own feeders or printing mods for existing ones. I find store bought things in general always need mods. If you're off-grid in general 3d printing is king because you can print solutions to problems without having to make expensive town trips. Selling solutions to neighbors also works, especially when paired with electronics skills as you can make gate systems, game cams, water monitoring systems, feed machines etc. Something I have stockpiled for a long-term SHTF situation is extra printing filament of different types.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
    « Reply #19 on: January 07, 2022, 03:01:00 PM »
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  • Maybe you already keep this in mind but just as important as learning which animals to keep and what to grow in your garden, you also need to learn how protect your animals and your garden. My chickens were often attacked by cayotes and racoons and my garden is often raided by wild bunnies and squirrels. Also be mindful of the weather and find(or develop) a calendar for your area to know what to sow at various times throughout the year.
    absolutely true.

    - Get two large guard dogs, like great Pyrenees or anatolian.  they are on the same level of the food chain as coyotes and coyotes know it due to the smell of the urine. Pyrenees are more docile and family friendly than anatolian, but Pyrenees are also fiercely protective of both their food and their family (YOU).  Get them young and raise them with your family.  never get them older than 5 or 6 months old.  Both will keep rats, mice, raccoons, skunks, and even mountain lions, away.  They never have to come in the house.  It is really important to get a country vet who understands "they're dogs".

    - we dug a trench around the chicken coop and installed 1/4" x 10" steel sheet metal.  never had a coon, rat, or other predator get in our coop.

    - agree on the garden...  we hated tending it.  the best way we found to garden was square-foot gardening with a removable, 2ft tall framed hardware netting "roof".  Kept all the animals out and protected the plants from hail, but couldn't grow anything taller than 2 ft and had to remove the roof each time for weeding or harvesting.  we also installed an automatic misting watering system (cheaper in the summer when the misting systems are readily available).

    - keep a BB gun handy to shoot the wild rabbits.  they are delicious.  but, don't eat them during summer and fall months.  they have worms which can make you sick.  won't make the pigs sick, though.  remember, pigs will eat almost anything. 


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
    « Reply #20 on: January 07, 2022, 03:19:15 PM »
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  • From my experience off-grid for 2 years:

    Heritage breeds like Barred Rocks, Rhode Islands etc for cold climates. They will be fine, the biggest thing with chickens is tending to foot injuries as this is a serious disease vector. Expect to get Neosporin (WITHOUT THE PAINKILLER THIS KILLS BIRDS) and stockpile it for birds. Get extra bandages too. Ensure you have some trees or a cool, shaded area during the summer. Do not get Cornish X, go with Freedom Rangers if you need a meat-oriented breed. I honestly think dual purpose is the way to go. Make sure you keep at least one hen that goes and stays broody (we have a mom that is broody basically half year and we eat the loss because ALL of her chicks live) and is a good mom. Having to warm water bottles for baby chicks and wrapping said water bottles so they don't kill themselves during the winter isn't fun (off grid). Just have a great mama hen.

    Rabbits are tricky, I agree with Epiphany. Especially during summer your losses will escalate unless you have a cool area that is out of sunlight. They are finicky animals and are best if you have a neighbor or someone you can barter with for feed. Free ranging/tractoring them isn't as good as broilers, especially due to heat sensitivity. Rabbits require a lot of work in general, even if you have an efficient cage system. Rabbits are the most retarded mothers and breeders as well. You will have mothers eat entire batches or not feed babies properly, especially with first time moms.

    If you can stomach it boil guts of almost anything you kill and feed it to chickens. Rockchuck and other invasive species are easy to trap/kill and will cut down on feed costs lol. If you're plinking then feed your birds.

    As for meat... I think you have to go the canning route. I agree with Epiphany yet again that freezers going out is just too costly and risky. As far as I see it locking into canning now and getting cans and Tattler lids AND extra seals is an inflation proof investment. Canning with Tattlers is cheaper than with metal lids and is probably going to save you money over freezers long term unless you have a very large electrical system and you are rich. I really wouldn't gamble.

    As for manure... This is one area where rabbits are king. Manure doesn't burn. I think with rabbits you have to have a complete system that integrates them or else they aren't worth it.

    As for orchard/garden... Pick something super easy and nutritious. Kale is a staple at my house, it basically requires no assistance and using arugula as a bait crop for insects keeps the bug pressure down (I will intentionally let some arugula bolt after harvesting as these will bait bugs well) and arugula is great in sandwiches to boot. Use kale stems in potato skillets and rice dishes where a rough texture is good for contrast and the leaves for canning soups. Arugula you can just fly through, it's insane. Grow lots of it because you'll never have enough. Go for Red Russian kale in extreme hot/cold climates, it's very tolerant and the strain I've been going with is good till around 0 degrees F. Braindead easy to raise. I think with a garden you want easy to raise things that have complementary plantings that are tasty or bug pressure becomes a SERIOUS issue. If you're going to do tomatoes you need a real plan. Don't waste your time otherwise.

    EDIT: It's worth noting if you are into 3d printing you can cut down on chicken food waste significantly by designing your own feeders or printing mods for existing ones. I find store bought things in general always need mods. If you're off-grid in general 3d printing is king because you can print solutions to problems without having to make expensive town trips. Selling solutions to neighbors also works, especially when paired with electronics skills as you can make gate systems, game cams, water monitoring systems, feed machines etc. Something I have stockpiled for a long-term SHTF situation is extra printing filament of different types.
    - yep, had to learn to do surgery for bumble foot on my chickens.  got it down pat.

    - I never had a successful broody hen, so I just went with a cheap electric incubator, but a broody hen is the way to go.

    - we didn't even boil all the parts from our butchering to feed to the chickens.  we let the flies invade and the chickens ate the maggots.  pigs will eat all the parts, too, raw.

    absolutely think outside the box.  Animals don't care what their home looks like.

    - Our chicken coop is made from recycled chain link, perches from old used PVC,  feeders made of 6" PVC with a Y connector on the bottom, which I got free.  we put a lid on the feeder at night so we aren't feeding mice. 

    - pig shelters were made from t-posts and heavy PVC pallets which my neighbor recycles.

    - goats and pigs have automatic watering systems using recycled 50 gallon blue PVC drums and pig nipple drinkers.

    - chicken waterer is similar, with a 50 gallon blue PVC drum attached to PVC with several chicken nipple drinkers.

    - homemade goat hay feeders using a cattle panel.

    more automated means less work for you and more time for canning, etc.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Perpetual Subsistence Farming and Gardening
    « Reply #21 on: January 08, 2022, 10:15:27 AM »
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  • Living Off the Grid: A Guide to Long-Term Produce Storage
    Here are the basics about what fruits and vegetables are good for long-term storage, and how to best store them naturally.



    https://www.hobbyfarms.com/living-off-grid-guide-long-term-produce-storage/ 


    article-post
    by Erica StraussMarch 28, 2019

    PHOTO: Gardener's Supply Co.

    Years ago, before I started urban homesteading, I saw a few adorable, pocket-sized pears for sale at the grocery store. They were packaged up in a plastic, snap-together box, six baby pears in a clamshell. I bought a box and brought them home, excited to try this fun, petite pear.
    They were the most grainy, insipid, pointless pears I’d ever eaten. I choked down the first bite and did not go back for a second. I live in Washington, the largest pear-producing state in the U.S., and I’d never experienced pears like that before. Turning over the plastic box, I saw it: “Product of Argentina.”
    Before a global food distribution system made it possible to ship rock-hard peaches and unripe plums from South America to South Dakota in January, people stocked their pantries and root cellars with enough locally grown storage crops to see them through the harshest of winters.
    Imagine your own private larder stocked with storage fruits and vegetables — apples, pears, squashes, brassicas and roots. Imagine knowing where and how your cold-weather crops were grown and stored between farm and table.
    There are many reasons to revive the root cellar. I grow and store my own produce to save money, increase my food security and decrease food miles, and because the flavors of locally grown, fresh-picked crops are just superior to out-of-season imports.
    My neighbor doesn’t garden much, but every year she buys several hundred pounds of winter squash from a local farm. She gets a great price and knows that when the weather gets chilly and she wants to make butternut squash soup, she can. She learned the hard way one year that many grocers simply stop selling winter squash after Thanksgiving.
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    It seems silly to buy flavorless fruits and vegetables that have more frequent flier miles than you do, when with only a little work, you can build a living larder of storage crops at home.
    What Can You Store?
    Certain fruits and vegetables are better adapted to root cellar storage than others. Typically, produce with a tough skin and dense flesh store best. Produce intended for root cellar storage should mature as late in fall as weather allows without risking damage to the crop, so as to maximize longevity in storage.
    Many root vegetables are ideal for cellar storage — roots or tubers are themselves energy storage for the plant. Some well-cured winter squash can last nearly a year in storage. Certain varieties of alliums have been bred to have incredible storage longevity, and with proper care, the right varieties of cabbage-family crops will last months in good condition.
    Apples, pears and quince are the classic storage fruit, but citrus does well, too.
    Roots & Tubers
    long-term storage produce beetsShutterstock
    Of the classic winter storage items, here are some of the best.

    • Beets: Most varieties of beets (pictured above) do well in storage, but Lutz is known for its keeping qualities. Select large, dense, unblemished beets. Wipe off excess soil and trim tops before storing. Beets can last three months in proper storage.
    • Carrots: Bolero and scarlet keeper store as long as six months from a fall harvest. Select medium-large, dense roots without any sign of insect damage or blemishes that would lead to rot. Wipe off excess soil and trim tops before storing.
    • Celeriac: Brilliant can be stored as long as four months. Trim of roots and leaves and wipe off excess soil before storing.
    • Potatoes: Yukon gold is a widely available potato that keeps well. Storage conditions of potatoes greatly influence keeping ability. Cure in a cool, dark place for a day or two, then brush off extra soil.
    • Radishes: Spanish black and other winter radishes can be stored for three months in ideal conditions. Daikon types also keep well.
    • Rutabagas: The purple top strains store well. Store rutabagas trimmed of roots and with leaves, but do not cut into the root.
      Choose rutabagas without insect damage, deep cracks or pits. Gently wash off soil, dry and store without curing.
    • Sweet Potatoes: With careful curing and ideal storage, they can last three months or more. Beauregard is a market standard variety with good storage potential, but curing and storage conditions have a greater impact on longevity than variety.
    • Turnips: Purple top white globe keep four to five months. Store trimmed of excess roots and leaves, but don’t cut into the storage root. Choose medium-large turnips without insect damage or pitting. Gently wash off any soil, dry and store without curing.
    Winter Squash
    If you cut into a typically sweet, full-flavored storage winter squash right off the vine, you might be shocked by how dull and flat it tastes. Most winter squashes require at least a few weeks of storage for their sugars to come up and their flavor to mature. So, this is a crop that not only can be stored but often must be for the best eating experience. Generally, larger squashes with thicker skins keep longer than small and thin-skinned winter squash.
    The longest keepers can last in good condition for seven months, and many winter squashes easily store four months. Select varieties known for their exceptional keeping qualities and rich, sweet, delicious flesh. A few of my favorites include the following.

    • Sweet Meat is an heirloom beloved in the Pacific Northwest that deserves to be more widely grown. It stores at least six months.
    • Waltham Butternut is a widely adapted, widely available heirloom butternut that lasts in good condition into early spring. It’s a great choice for families with limited storage space, because well-bred lines of this squash last very well; have versatile, smooth, sweet flesh good for sweet or savory applications; and are moderate in size.
    • Musque de Provence is the winter squash with the “Cinderella’s carriage” look. A French heirloom, it’s a large squash with great flavor that keeps six months or longer.
    Acorn-type squashes are poor keepers that should be eaten within a month or six weeks of harvest. They don’t require curing. Delicata types are also short keepers and best within two months of harvest.
    Alliums
    garlic long-term storage produceShutterstock
    These three alliums — garlic, leeks and onions — have storage longevity:

    • Garlic: Although soft neck garlics are known as better keepers, I far prefer hard-necks. Music is one of the best storing hard-necked garlics. Mine lasts as long as seven months without too much fuss.
    • Leeks: Winter leeks, such as giant Mussel­burgh, store right in the ground in all winter climates but the coldest. They can also be lifted and trimmed and last two months or more in cold storage. Peel drying outer leaves just before use.
    • Onions: Copra and similar high-sulfur, hard-storage onions last six months when well-cured.
    Brassicas
    cabbage long-term storage produceShutterstock
    Brassicas can be used as winter or rotational cover crops.

    • Brussels Sprouts: Look for a variety such as Doric that takes cold well and matures late in the season. Dig entire stalks with roots attached, shake off excess soil and store upside down. Brussels sprouts stalks were often hung from root cellar rafters. Brussels sprouts keep for two months in good condition, sometimes longer.
    • Cabbages: Varieties bred for storage, such as storage No. 4 or Kaitlin, are dense and have thick, waxy wrapper leaves to keep moisture in the plant. If you live in a mild winter climate (zone 7/8 or higher), consider the hardy savoy cabbages, such as January king, which can be wintered in-ground reliably. Dig with roots attached, trim damaged outer leaves and hang upside down, or cut through stem, trim outer leaves and store in a single layer. Certain cabbages keep as long as three months.
    • Kohlrabi: Winter varieties are huge and stay juicy and crisp well into fall. Select Kossak or superschmeltz varieties, trim roots and leaves, and store one to two deep.
    Fruit
    lemons long-term storage produceShutterstock
    Apples, pears, quince, some citrus and tomatoes can be stored without too much fuss.

    • Apples: Popular dessert apples, such as Fuji or gala, tend to be high in sugar and water and have fairly thin skin. Unless you have a commercial controlled atmosphere storage facility (and if you had one, you’d know it) these varieties aren’t ideal for keeping. For root cellar storage, seek heirlooms bred for keeping, such as Belle de Boskoop, Karmijn de Sonnaville, winesap or Arkansas black. With proper storage, these old time apples last as long as six months. For best results, wrap each fruit in newsprint or tissue paper individually and check frequently for rots or molds. Remove decaying fruit immediately to keep the rest of the crop in good shape.
    • Pears: Because pears don’t ripen well on the tree, they are an ideal fruit for storage. When picked hard and slightly underripe, winter varieties such as D’Anjou can last three to four months. They improve with proper storage and can be brought out a few at a time to ripen at room temperature as needed.
    • Quince: Treat these like pears. Pick them hard, when their ground color begins to lighten from green to pale greenish-yellow, and store only unblemished and scab-free fruit. Expect a storage life of about two months from most cultivars.
    • Citrus: Lemons, limes and oranges can keep very well in cool storage. Expect a shelf life of two to four months, depending on variety. Thicker skinned citrus lasts longer and in better condition than thin skinned varieties, such as Meyer lemons and Satsumas.
    • Tomatoes: If a tomato is fully mature and just starting to color when frost forces harvest, the fruit typically ripens off the vine. Keep fresh tomatoes on the table for longer by selecting a keeping variety, such as longkeeper, storing only fully mature but unripe and unblemished fruit, and watching carefully for signs of decay. When possible, I store my tomatoes stem-end down to prevent bruising as the fruit ripens.
    Storage Categories
    long-term storage produce
    All produce has optimum conditions for storage. When these conditions are met, the fruit or vegetable lasts as long as possible in good condition. The two most import things to consider are temperature and humidity.
    Nearly all storage produce fares best in one of four categories:

    • Cold & Moist: Most roots, storage fruits and green vegetables benefit from these storage conditions. The goal of cold, moist storage is to lower the respiration rate of your produce by keeping it as close to freezing as you can get without freezing, and in very high humidity: 33 to 34 degrees Fahrenheit and 90 to 95 percent humidity is ideal.
    • Cool & Moist: Potatoes do well in cool, moist environments: 40 degrees and 90 percent relative humidity is ideal. Storing potatoes at near-freezing temperatures triggers them to convert their starch to sugar. Citrus and green tomatoes also store well in these conditions.
    • Cold & Dry: Alliums benefits from a cold, dry storage environment, with temperatures near freezing and relative humidity of about 65 percent.
    • Cool & Dry: Produce that originates in warm or tropical areas, such as winter squash, sweet potato and citrus, is damaged by near-freezing chills. These crops store best in cool-storage. Temperatures of around 50 to 55 degrees are optimum for extending storage without risking chill damage.
    A root cellar needn’t take a lot of space or money. Many modern homes have spaces that can be adapted for long-term storage without too much hassle. All that’s required is a bit of knowledge about what fruits and vegetables store well, how to store them naturally to retain maximum quality over the longest time, and a willingness to search your home for spaces that meet those needs.
    This article appeared in Living Off the Grid, a 2018 specialty publication produced by the editors and writers of Hobby Farms magazine. Aside from this piece on long-term produce storage, Living Off the Grid includes stories on renewable energy, growing plants without seeds and permaculture. You can purchase this volume, Hobby Farms back issues as well as special editions such as Best of Hobby Farms and Best of Urban Farm by following this link.



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."