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Author Topic: 1 Corinthians 11:14  (Read 1053 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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1 Corinthians 11:14
« on: Yesterday at 03:50:39 AM »
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    •  14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? 

    What did Saint Paul mean by this? There are plenty of biblical figures with long hair and someone like Charlemagne is depicted with long hair. I didn't see anything on this verse from Haydock.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 05:07:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 03:50:39 AM
    14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?

    What did Saint Paul mean by this? There are plenty of biblical figures with long hair and someone like Charlemagne is depicted with long hair. I didn't see anything on this verse from Haydock.
    When the Haydock doesn't have anything, sometimes I look at the Jerusalem Bible....

    13 Ask yourselves if it is fitting for a woman to pray to God without a veil;
    14 and whether nature itself does not tell you that long hair on a man is nothing to be admired,
    15 while a woman, who was given her hair as a covering, thinks long hair her glory?
    16 To anyone who might still want to argue: it is not the custom with us, nor in the churches of God.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 05:45:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 05:07:20 AM
    When the Haydock doesn't have anything, sometimes I look at the Jerusalem Bible....

    13 Ask yourselves if it is fitting for a woman to pray to God without a veil;
    14 and whether nature itself does not tell you that long hair on a man is nothing to be admired,
    15 while a woman, who was given her hair as a covering, thinks long hair her glory?
    16 To anyone who might still want to argue: it is not the custom with us, nor in the churches of God.
    I don't understand, could you explain it to me?

    This translations does change it somewhat from the others.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 06:25:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 05:45:45 AM
    I don't understand, could you explain it to me?

    This translations does change it somewhat from the others.
    I could be wrong so don't depend on what I say, but it seems to me that he is simply saying that women should have their heads covered in Church but men should not - that is the custom. 

    It seems to me he is telling the Corinthians to stick with what is the custom.

    IIRC, the Church in Corinth was in trouble due to the faithful abandoning what he taught them previously, instead, they began embracing novelties - something like what happened after V2, so St. Paul was scolding them for departing from the established customs. Again, I could be mistaken here, if so I am sure someone will correct me. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 07:03:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 06:25:42 AM
    I could be wrong so don't depend on what I say, but it seems to me that he is simply saying that women should have their heads covered in Church but men should not - that is the custom.

    It seems to me he is telling the Corinthians to stick with what is the custom.

    IIRC, the Church in Corinth was in trouble due to the faithful abandoning what he taught them previously, instead, they began embracing novelties - something like what happened after V2, so St. Paul was scolding them for departing from the established customs. Again, I could be mistaken here, if so I am sure someone will correct me.
    St Paul says a man nourishing his hair is a shame to himself. I don't really understand what he meant by that. The women part is easy to understand.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 08:06:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 07:03:35 AM
    St Paul says a man nourishing his hair is a shame to himself. I don't really understand what he meant by that. The women part is easy to understand.
    I think he means that because it's against nature, men should not have long hair, that it is women who have long hair. But I am with you, I really do not know.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 04:09:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 08:06:34 AM
    I think he means that because it's against nature, men should not have long hair, that it is women who have long hair. But I am with you, I really do not know.
    Yeah that interpretation doesn't make sense as our Lord, Samson, John the baptist and many mediaeval Catholic men had long hair. In nature your hair can get pretty long so I don't see it being unnatural.
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 04:13:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 04:09:06 PM
    Yeah that interpretation doesn't make sense as our Lord, Samson, John the baptist and many mediaeval Catholic men had long hair. In nature your hair can get pretty long so I don't see it being unnatural.
    It could mean more about a man excessively caring for his hair
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 04:37:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 04:09:06 PM
    Yeah that interpretation doesn't make sense as our Lord, Samson, John the baptist and many mediaeval Catholic men had long hair. In nature your hair can get pretty long so I don't see it being unnatural.
    Quote from: WorldsAway on Yesterday at 04:13:10 PM
    It could mean more about a man excessively caring for his hair
    I agree with you both, but not sure he would actually scold them for excessive hair care, unless the men were getting perms, color, or curling their hair. I don't know but that seems highly unlikely.

    What seems most logical to me is that he was be speaking against the excessive length of men's hair as going against the customs he had previously taught them to adhere to. After all, they did have scissors back then.

    But then what about Our Lord and Samson etc.? Were they taught that these were exceptions? 
    And how exactly would they nourish their hair back then except by washing it?   

    "14 And whether nature itself does not tell you that long hair on a man is nothing to be admired," - Jerusalem
    "14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?" - DR
    "14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him," - Novus Ordo Bible
    "14 Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him," - random prot bible
    "14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" - KJV


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: 1 Corinthians 11:14
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 05:25:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 04:37:00 AM
    I agree with you both, but not sure he would actually scold them for excessive hair care, unless the men were getting perms, color, or curling their hair. I don't know but that seems highly unlikely.

    What seems most logical to me is that he was be speaking against the excessive length of men's hair as going against the customs he had previously taught them to adhere to. After all, they did have scissors back then.

    But then what about Our Lord and Samson etc.? Were they taught that these were exceptions?
    And how exactly would they nourish their hair back then except by washing it? 

    "14 And whether nature itself does not tell you that long hair on a man is nothing to be admired," - Jerusalem
    "14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?" - DR
    "14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him," - Novus Ordo Bible
    "14 Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him," - random prot bible
    "14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" - KJV
    Yeah it's difficult, when you consider the numerous Catholic kings that had long hair it doesn't make sense, surely they would have seen this passage too.

    Maybe the Saints have something to say on this? Any good resources out there in english?
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