[wallflower]

Unless there's a severe communication problem (autism? I'm grasping at straws), I don't know what else it could be but a deep abiding dishonesty.
 

I have Asperger's, which is a form of high-functioning autism. I won't speak for Jayne, but Aspies (and auties in general) are honest to the point of outright bluntness, if nothing else.

Yeah, I can't deny that I've thought about this and grasped at straws for some other explanation than malice. I'm not trying to be offensive and I realize I am probably way out of line, but there's only one other person I have met online that I felt this kind of block with where no matter what was said, the miscommunication got worse and it descended into nit-picking every word, so that kind of led my thoughts this way. (I think he might have aspergers too, not autism, I'm not sure) Once I got to understand him by his own parameters, not the "typical" parameters, then I was much more able to appreciate him and know how to read his posts for more favorable discussions. So I don't know, am I supposed to read Jayne differently and just accept that's it's not going to be "typical" or do I admit that it could actually be malice and avoid like the plague? It can be confusing when you try to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Jaynek]

But that's part of the problem. You recommended it on FE just a week after people pointed out problems with it on SD. From Feb 24th to Mar 3rd. Its issues would have been fresh in your mind then. Maybe you needed more time to realize they had problems, I'd give that benefit of the doubt. But to be honest you seemed familiar with them, not like you just googled them that day thereby making a mistake you later regretted.

The problems pointed out at the time did not seem serious to me. It was not until the most recent thread about it that I became convinced it had serious problems. I did think that I was familiar with this group because I think that they published a pamphlet on Edith Stein that I found very moving when I read it years ago.  I understood that this group was working and praying for the conversion of Jews so I thought they were good.  I only just found out about their possible Judaizing tendencies.

Again, I don't know them so my main issue here isn't that you recommended them. It's the shiftiness. When someone calls you out here about promoting them, your answer isn't "Yes I did but I have changed my position." It's "No, I don't, you're misrepresenting me." Of course making that person out to be a liar, UNTIL someone pulls up proof, then we get the truth, that you in fact did/do recommend them, whatever the case may be. AND you recommended them outside of the particular context that you tried to say was being misrepresented.

I had completely forgotten that I had recommended it to someone until you reminded me.  My comments were wrong and unfair to the person I claimed was misrepresenting me.  I am sorry and I apologize.

It's just always shifting sands with you. If it happened once in a while it would be normal because it does happen to everyone. We change, we progress or regress, we misunderstand each other, we forget things, we're unsure of our position and contradict ourselves until we figure out what to stick with, it happens. But the miscommunication to the point of suspicion and distrust in your case is so overwhelming, it is not normal. Nor can it be chalked up to or laughed off as a simple personality quirk like you try to do. Oh I know people don't like me, haha. There's something truly off.  It's not limited to a certain forum, to any stripe of trad or to any clique. And it's been years. The usual time it takes for people to get to know each other a bit better is passed yet it still doesn't help. It actually makes it worse.

Unless there's a severe communication problem (autism? I'm grasping at straws), I don't know what else it could be but a deep abiding dishonesty. God forgive me if I'm picking on you unjustly. I'm just at a loss at how improbable it is that such pervading issues could be innocent.

I am never deliberately dishonest.  I am not aware of shifting my position.  Maybe I do it without realizing it.  Please pray for me.

[Jaynek]

Unless there's a severe communication problem (autism? I'm grasping at straws), I don't know what else it could be but a deep abiding dishonesty.
 

I have Asperger's, which is a form of high-functioning autism. I won't speak for Jayne, but Aspies (and auties in general) are honest to the point of outright bluntness, if nothing else.

Yeah, I can't deny that I've thought about this and grasped at straws for some other explanation than malice. I'm not trying to be offensive and I realize I am probably way out of line, but there's only one other person I have met online that I felt this kind of block with where no matter what was said, the miscommunication got worse and it descended into nit-picking every word, so that kind of led my thoughts this way. (I think he might have aspergers too, not autism, I'm not sure) Once I got to understand him by his own parameters, not the "typical" parameters, then I was much more able to appreciate him and know how to read his posts for more favorable discussions. So I don't know, am I supposed to read Jayne differently and just accept that's it's not going to be "typical" or do I admit that it could actually be malice and avoid like the plague? It can be confusing when you try to give the benefit of the doubt.

I have never been diagnosed with Asperger's or anything that would affect my communication.  I am not acting from malice but there is no way for me to prove that.

[wallflower]

Well I guess we're back to square one then. I have to heed the distrust but I do ask for forgiveness if it is unjust. I probably will not know in this life.

[Jaynek]

Well I guess we're back to square one then. I have to heed the distrust but I do ask for forgiveness if it is unjust. I probably will not know in this life.

I do forgive you and I appreciate that you attempted to give me the benefit of the doubt.

At least it gives me an opportunity to work on developing humility which is something I need very much.

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.

From the desire of being loved...
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I ...
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease ...
That others may be chosen and I set aside ...
That others may be praised and I unnoticed ...
That others may be preferred to me in everything...
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

[Hatchc]

On SD, I'm pretty sure GottmitunsAlex and tmw pass. I wasn't surprised to learn today that tmw is stepping down as moderator over on SD. He's undoubtedly bothered by Kaesekopf's feminism, among other things.

Maybe Hawaii Five-O as well. He's definitely anti-Jєωιѕн, and seems to be anti-feminist. I don't think being married to a nonwhite should necessary dispose one towards embracing today's PC race politics. I'd like to think that were I married to a nonwhite I would still have politically incorrect views on race.

He said recently that he only just became aware of this forum.

Heinrich might be an exception as well.

Would JoeVoxxPop from FE fit the bill?

Maybe.

[Hatchc]

You aren't being honest whenever you defend FE or SD, Jaynek.

Exactly what are you claiming was dishonest?  Anything that I have ever posted was something I believed to be true.  You might have disagreed with it, but that does not make something dishonest.

It is dishonest to support Vox and FE despite all the immorality that goes on there. Yet every time there's a thread here against FishEaters, you take up for it.

She takes up for CathInfo on FE as well, and does the same on SD. It's part of her schtick.

[Rosarium]

I am never deliberately dishonest.  I am not aware of shifting my position.  Maybe I do it without realizing it.  Please pray for me.

The personality trait or habit seems to be one of appeasing others and attempting to be...well, a mother, to everyone. This won't work unless others view their relationship with you as you do.

That is my personal assessment which you can take as you will.

For those who did not see specific issues about this forum being discussed, the primary issue that I see is that on CathInfo many interactions treat the Church as a human political organization, to the extent that some people accuse others of error merely for not having the same view.

I learned in the beginning of this thread that Ben is here. Greetings Ben. I was Pæniteo. You waited on SD until you were banned, eh?

For forums in general, they require a social element to be active, and they are all at risk of that social element taking priority.

[Rosarium]

Yeah, I can't deny that I've thought about this and grasped at straws for some other explanation than malice. I'm not trying to be offensive and I realize I am probably way out of line, but there's only one other person I have met online that I felt this kind of block with where no matter what was said, the miscommunication got worse and it descended into nit-picking every word, so that kind of led my thoughts this way. (I think he might have aspergers too, not autism, I'm not sure) Once I got to understand him by his own parameters, not the "typical" parameters, then I was much more able to appreciate him and know how to read his posts for more favorable discussions.

For perspective, consider that ASD results in the same issues in both directions.

As you probably saw the other person showing certain traits, that person would see similar traits in you. The more the other attempted to communicate clearly, the more vague you probably seemed to get. The more the other person tried to focus on the topic, the more you probably seemed to focus on the person.

And personally, when people react to things which were not explicitly stated, it looks like normal people have severe mental illness and hallucinations. ASD communication is usually simple and formal and explicit, and nothing else is used, but those who expect more subtle communication, cannot help but see it.

If I happen to be the "one other person", I do not remember any interactions which had problems and my response above is a general observation. If I am not that one other person, my observation may be accurate to various degrees for others, but we are not all exactly the same.

So I don't know, am I supposed to read Jayne differently and just accept that's it's not going to be "typical" or do I admit that it could actually be malice and avoid like the plague? It can be confusing when you try to give the benefit of the doubt.

We do not know the hearts of others, so we can give the benefit of the doubt to everyone. However, we should also avoid futile discourse. The trick is finding out where further discussion is indeed futile.

I have found that most discussion is futile, so there is very little to be lost by avoiding others (as a group or individually).

[Jaynek]

I am never deliberately dishonest.  I am not aware of shifting my position.  Maybe I do it without realizing it.  Please pray for me.

The personality trait or habit seems to be one of appeasing others and attempting to be...well, a mother, to everyone. This won't work unless others view their relationship with you as you do.

That is insightful of you.  So many posters are the ages of my children that I do find myself often having maternal feelings toward them.  It does not surprise me that it comes out in my posts.  I think you are also right about me having a tendency to appease others.

[Hatchc]

I learned in the beginning of this thread that Ben is here. Greetings Ben. I was Pæniteo. You waited on SD until you were banned, eh?

Hi Ros!

You should delete that "I am not on this forum" bit in your signature.

[Rosarium]

I learned in the beginning of this thread that Ben is here. Greetings Ben. I was Pæniteo. You waited on SD until you were banned, eh?

Hi Ros!

You should delete that "I am not on this forum" bit in your signature.

That is intended to indicate that I am "not on this forum" when I am not, which is most of the time. Often, I get personal messages, and I am not around when they come. I sometimes spend a few days using this forum regularly, and then forget about it for a few weeks or more. I think I have to reword it. I'll do that later.

[Hatchc]

You should set up your account to not receive PMs, but only email.

[wallflower]

Yeah, I can't deny that I've thought about this and grasped at straws for some other explanation than malice. I'm not trying to be offensive and I realize I am probably way out of line, but there's only one other person I have met online that I felt this kind of block with where no matter what was said, the miscommunication got worse and it descended into nit-picking every word, so that kind of led my thoughts this way. (I think he might have aspergers too, not autism, I'm not sure) Once I got to understand him by his own parameters, not the "typical" parameters, then I was much more able to appreciate him and know how to read his posts for more favorable discussions.

For perspective, consider that ASD results in the same issues in both directions.

As you probably saw the other person showing certain traits, that person would see similar traits in you. The more the other attempted to communicate clearly, the more vague you probably seemed to get. The more the other person tried to focus on the topic, the more you probably seemed to focus on the person.

And personally, when people react to things which were not explicitly stated, it looks like normal people have severe mental illness and hallucinations. ASD communication is usually simple and formal and explicit, and nothing else is used, but those who expect more subtle communication, cannot help but see it.

Yes, this is what I finally came to realize.

If I happen to be the "one other person", I do not remember any interactions which had problems and my response above is a general observation. If I am not that one other person, my observation may be accurate to various degrees for others, but we are not all exactly the same.

Yes you were the other person but there are a few here who are vicious towards you as it is so I wasn't going to name you if it could potentially makes things worse for you. I had difficulty getting along with you for a little while, (and if you don't remember, that is good!) but once I was mentally trained to read your posts at strict face value, not taking anything else into account or reading between the lines, like you mention above, it really helped. If there's something I still don't understand after a few clarifications, I just let it go.

So I don't know, am I supposed to read Jayne differently and just accept that's it's not going to be "typical" or do I admit that it could actually be malice and avoid like the plague? It can be confusing when you try to give the benefit of the doubt.

We do not know the hearts of others, so we can give the benefit of the doubt to everyone. However, we should also avoid futile discourse. The trick is finding out where further discussion is indeed futile.

I have found that most discussion is futile, so there is very little to be lost by avoiding others (as a group or individually).

Indeed.

[Rosarium]

Yes you were the other person but there are a few here who are vicious towards you as it is so I wasn't going to name you if it could potentially makes things worse for you.

Knowing I have Autism Spectrum Disorder does not really aid others in their personal abuse of me, although, it if they choose to use it, they end up being malicious to other people who have it as a whole. But it usually interferes with discussion as people attribute things to it without reason and do not understand it. That is why I do not think it is worth public revelation most of the time.

People become incredibly awkward when they learn a person has it, as they do not know how to act, and they are sure they have to act some way. EDIT: For those reading, just treat people with ASD like people, with the understanding that use of language may be slightly different, essentially, like a person who is speaking a second language and from a different culture. It is not necessary to understand another in depth, as long as one can discuss the topic.

At this point in my life, it does not really affect me at all. I have a vocation which does not require extensive personal interaction, and there may be particular differences with me, morally, they are more or less the same as everybody else, even if they may appear slightly different.

 I had difficulty getting along with you for a little while, (and if you don't remember, that is good!) but once I was mentally trained to read your posts at strict face value, not taking anything else into account or reading between the lines, like you mention above, it really helped. If there's something I still don't understand after a few clarifications, I just let it go.

I do not remember. I hope it wasn't too trying for you.

If you see anything which is potentially morally misleading or in error, please let me know.

I do not plan on using this forum much. It does not offer me anything, and I am prone to wasting time.