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Author Topic: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?  (Read 9549 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2023, 06:52:53 AM »
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  • I remember seeing that. It was mentioned in one of the editions of Adsum. Bishop Carmona was certainly a very holy priest and bishop. The CMRI priest that I go to for Masses told us that Bishop Carmona would offer four Masses during the day (can't recall if it was everyday or just Sundays, but nevertheless four public Masses in a single day is incredible dedication)! I should have asked Bishop Pivarunas more about Bishop Carmona back when I met him after my confirmation this past September.

    And I don't know if you intended to make that pun, but it's perfect :laugh1:
    Thanks for digging that up!  No, I did not purposely make a pun.  Bummer....because it is funny.  :laugh1:

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #46 on: January 02, 2023, 07:52:51 AM »
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  • #1 Father Joseph Collins...  Requiescat in Pace! :pray:
    I could certainly get on board with this, but I suspect I'm too emotionally connected to him.


    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #47 on: January 02, 2023, 08:55:00 AM »
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  • I get it, but canonization requires not just good theology but also heroic sanctity, so one would have to look into his personal life very deeply, obtain the necessary miracles, etc. ... perhaps you could start by asking his intercession for some miraculous cause.

    Of course, it's quite clear that this is precisely what the Conciliar Church has done, use canonization for political reasons.  As even Michael Matt admitted, Roncalli and Montini were not canonized on account of heroic virtue and sanctity but because they were attempting to endorse and "canonize", as it were, Vatican II itself.

    But I guess it would be true of all these suggestions, where we add "... assuming that an investigation finds personal sanctity and heroic virtue".
    Oh Yeah I get that Point Ladislaus, 100% agree, Vatican II was the Self Canonization of the Novus Ordo Popes (I doubt Benedict XVI will be Canonized as he is too "Conservative" for the Novus Ordoites  :laugh1:)
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #48 on: January 02, 2023, 09:07:19 AM »
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  • While I think that he was a good and holy man overall, despite Bishop Kelly's smear campaign, I do think that he's tainted a bit by the Palmar fiasco, and that would have to be investigate
    The SSPV vs Thuc thing is another thing, however I do believe giving Apostolic Succession to the Palmarian Church is a Caveat  (He is Canonized with Cardinal Ottiviani in the Palmarian Church so that's one thing)

    I've Included few Images of Thuc in El Palmar (I Collect Archive Imagery of Traditional Catholic Clerics, Niche Catholic Archives are Interesting to look at tbh)

    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #49 on: January 02, 2023, 09:50:47 AM »
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  • I do believe that +Thuc was a good and holy man, and the good he did to preserve the Faith during this Crisis outweighs his mistakes.  It’s just that the Church does sometimes withhold canonization over mistakes of this nature.  Of course, anyone can make a mistake.  St. Cyprian strongly promoted the notion of rebaptizing heretics that was later condemned as heretical, St. Vincent Ferrer sided with an Antipope, St. Thomas got it wrong about The Immaculate Conception, etc. etc.


    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #50 on: January 02, 2023, 10:04:56 AM »
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  • My withholding of +Thuc's name had less to do with his mistakes and more to do with his ministry not being obviously heroic. +Thuc led a quiet, traumatized life. This by no means precludes him from the beatific vision. But his ministry does not compare to Archbishop Lefebvre's, whose was very active and bold. Lefebvre is a much more obvious candidate for canonization. And canonized saints really should be obvious. 

    For similar reasons, I did not name any of my favorite theologians (although I appreciate that others have!). They were brilliant, but I am not aware of heroic virtue on their part. That may just be my own ignorance. 

    Savonarola (who I said I'd take a good hard look at--not that I'd spontaneously canonize) is a figure similar to Joan of Arc (executed while excommunicated; both had very powerful political enemies in the Church). I know his theology has come under criticism, and I am not learned enough to confidently die on a hill in his defense. But he's worth a very serious look. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #51 on: January 02, 2023, 10:24:43 AM »
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  • My withholding of +Thuc's name had less to do with his mistakes and more to do with his ministry not being obviously heroic. +Thuc led a quiet, traumatized life. This by no means precludes him from the beatific vision. But his ministry does not compare to Archbishop Lefebvre's, whose was very active and bold. Lefebvre is a much more obvious candidate for canonization. And canonized saints really should be obvious.

    For similar reasons, I did not name any of my favorite theologians (although I appreciate that others have!). They were brilliant, but I am not aware of heroic virtue on their part. That may just be my own ignorance.

    Savonarola (who I said I'd take a good hard look at--not that I'd spontaneously canonize) is a figure similar to Joan of Arc (executed while excommunicated; both had very powerful political enemies in the Church). I know his theology has come under criticism, and I am not learned enough to confidently die on a hill in his defense. But he's worth a very serious look.
    I second your point, The Candidate ought to be an obvious choice.
    There is an article on the Canonization of Savonarola, apparently Internal Jesuit and Dominican "Beef" over it

    https://natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/1999a/012299/012299g.htm
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #52 on: January 02, 2023, 10:27:18 AM »
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  • I don’t think someone has to be a super public figure to be heroic, and his contribution to preserving the Faith and Sacraments for the faithful cannot be understated.

    +Thuc was basically booted from the Vatican, unable to return to Vietnam after the execution of his family by the Communists and had no resources and few connections to do anything.  When Father Noel Barbara found him, he was living in a tiny and dirty little room that three people could not sit down in without the Archbishop having to sit on his bed, hearing Confessions to pay for his upkeep.  What a horrible disgrace that an Archbishop was reduced to this!  But the point is that he did not have the same means as +Lefebvre to do something.

    On top of that, +Lefebvre wasn’t going to do much either ... until those first prospective seminarians approached him and persuaded him to start a seminary.


    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #53 on: January 02, 2023, 10:36:30 AM »
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  • I do believe that +Thuc was a good and holy man, and the good he did to preserve the Faith during this Crisis outweighs his mistakes.  It’s just that the Church does sometimes withhold canonization over mistakes of this nature.  Of course, anyone can make a mistake.  St. Cyprian strongly promoted the notion of rebaptizing heretics that was later condemned as heretical, St. Vincent Ferrer sided with an Antipope, St. Thomas got it wrong about The Immaculate Conception, etc. etc.
    I cannot really judge a person for their "Holiness" especially a "Traditional" Prelate like Abp Thuc (He had a tough Life Post V2, He was abandoned by the Church after V2)  however if i was to  play devils advocate here, Abp Thuc's Involvement with El Palmar was on a different level, The only reason why he Consecrated Anti Pope Clemente Gregory XVII was because he told Archbishop Thuc he believed he was the successor to Paul VI and he needed Apostolic Succession to continue his Carmelite Order Church (Total Schism), Abp Thuc while not off the whim consecrating Clemente was only Inclined afterwards due to believing Clemente was holding the baby Jesus and made Abp Thuc hold baby Jesus(I believe there is a Movie about this exact same scene aswell). The Point being this mistake is possibly too much of a big one.

    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #54 on: January 02, 2023, 10:51:17 AM »
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  • I don’t think someone has to be a super public figure to be heroic, and his contribution to preserving the Faith and Sacraments for the faithful cannot be understated.

    +Thuc was basically booted from the Vatican, unable to return to Vietnam after the execution of his family by the Communists and had no resources and few connections to do anything.  When Father Noel Barbara found him, he was living in a tiny and dirty little room that three people could not sit down in without the Archbishop having to sit on his bed, hearing Confessions to pay for his upkeep.  What a horrible disgrace that an Archbishop was reduced to this!  But the point is that he did not have the same means as +Lefebvre to do something.

    On top of that, +Lefebvre wasn’t going to do much either ... until those first prospective seminarians approached him and persuaded him to start a seminary.
    Thank you.  

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #55 on: January 02, 2023, 11:35:34 AM »
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  • I don’t think someone has to be a super public figure to be heroic, and his contribution to preserving the Faith and Sacraments for the faithful cannot be understated.

    +Thuc was basically booted from the Vatican, unable to return to Vietnam after the execution of his family by the Communists and had no resources and few connections to do anything.  When Father Noel Barbara found him, he was living in a tiny and dirty little room that three people could not sit down in without the Archbishop having to sit on his bed, hearing Confessions to pay for his upkeep.  What a horrible disgrace that an Archbishop was reduced to this!  But the point is that he did not have the same means as +Lefebvre to do something.

    On top of that, +Lefebvre wasn’t going to do much either ... until those first prospective seminarians approached him and persuaded him to start a seminary.
    So....  Are you saying that being persecuted by the Conciliar sect disqualifies one from sainthood or are you refuting Mithrandylan?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #56 on: January 02, 2023, 11:39:01 AM »
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  • So....  Are you saying that being persecuted by the Conciliar sect disqualifies one from sainthood or are you refuting Mithrandylan?
    I took his post as refuting Mithrandylan.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #57 on: January 02, 2023, 11:43:34 AM »
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  • I cannot really judge a person for their "Holiness" especially a "Traditional" Prelate like Abp Thuc (He had a tough Life Post V2, He was abandoned by the Church after V2)  however if i was to  play devils advocate here, Abp Thuc's Involvement with El Palmar was on a different level, The only reason why he Consecrated Anti Pope Clemente Gregory XVII was because he told Archbishop Thuc he believed he was the successor to Paul VI and he needed Apostolic Succession to continue his Carmelite Order Church (Total Schism), Abp Thuc while not off the whim consecrating Clemente was only Inclined afterwards due to believing Clemente was holding the baby Jesus and made Abp Thuc hold baby Jesus(I believe there is a Movie about this exact same scene aswell). The Point being this mistake is possibly too much of a big one.
    I tend to think that the true Church hierarchy would take the huge Crisis in the Church at the time into account when determining what mistake is "too much of a big one". 

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #58 on: January 02, 2023, 02:50:59 PM »
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  • ... [t]he only reason why he Consecrated Anti Pope Clemente Gregory XVII was because he told Archbishop Thuc he believed he was the successor to Paul VI ...

    This is incorrect.  Clemente did not claim to be be pope, successor to Paul VI, until about a year after +Thuc consecrated him a bishop.  Once that happened, +Thuc rejected the Palmar group and distanced himself from them.  This is one source of the disinfo / propaganda against him that he withheld his intention when consecrating these guys.  He didn't say that, just that he disavowed or rejected the movement / group after Clemente declared himself Pope.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: If you could canonize any one person as a saint who would it be?
    « Reply #59 on: January 02, 2023, 02:52:46 PM »
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