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Author Topic: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete  (Read 6558 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2018, 10:26:59 AM »
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    • The Challoner edition of the Douay Rheims  Bible was approved by countless bishops and Pope for the use of the faithful under their care .  Catholics were told they could read it without fear or scruple. 

    Yes this edition is different from the earlier one .  English spelling had changed dramatically during the interval between them .  There were different heresies and challenges facing the Church which needed to be addressed in the notes .  But there is no justification for treating it as somehow defective. 

    Even though I take the R and R position myself, I cannot deny that some of us seem to have a retroactive crisis that allows them to reject any Church teaching or practice they please. It is absurd that Catholic laypeople who cannot even read Latin consider themselves competent to reject pre-Crisis editions of the Douay Rheims Bible . 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #31 on: September 18, 2018, 10:28:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 18, 2018, 10:21:16 AM

    Is it possible nowadays to purchase a non-Challoner version of the Douay-Rheims?
    It is unlikely that you could understand it .

    I do not mean that as a slur on Meg's intelligence . I mean that the English of that time is significantly different from that which we speak. 
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #32 on: September 18, 2018, 10:39:55 AM »
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    • My favorite version of the Douay-Rheims Bible is the Haydock Version with the commentary/footnotes of the Doctors of the Church.  I grew up novus ordo and my traditional Catholic godmother gave me a copy as a gift one year for my birthday (or baptism I forget).  It made a BIG impact in my life and I believe that it played a part in preparing me for the traditional Catholic Faith.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1885692110/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1885692110&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #33 on: September 18, 2018, 11:54:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on September 18, 2018, 10:39:55 AM
    My favorite version of the Douay-Rheims Bible is the Haydock Version with the commentary/footnotes of the Doctors of the Church.  I grew up novus ordo and my traditional Catholic godmother gave me a copy as a gift one year for my birthday (or baptism I forget).  It made a BIG impact in my life and I believe that it played a part in preparing me for the traditional Catholic Faith.
    This edition is also condemned by the website that happenby linked.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #34 on: September 18, 2018, 12:04:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 18, 2018, 10:21:16 AM

    Is it possible nowadays to purchase a non-Challoner version of the Douay-Rheims?
    The link provided in the OP.  They reproduced the original Douay exactly, and it is available through them.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #35 on: September 18, 2018, 12:07:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on September 18, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
    It is unlikely that you could understand it .

    I do not mean that as a slur on Meg's intelligence . I mean that the English of that time is significantly different from that which we speak.
    I own the original 1592 version and it is understandable.  When in doubt, one can cross check with the Douay to get an idea of what is being said, but its not as bad as one might think considering the early date it was published. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #36 on: September 18, 2018, 12:15:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on September 18, 2018, 12:04:43 PM
    The link provided in the OP.  They reproduced the original Douay exactly, and it is available through them.
    So they try to convince Catholics that there is something wrong with other versions while making a profit selling the one that they claim is the only good one.  This is not a disinterested source of information.

    Why trust this group that has a clear conflict of interest over the bishops and popes who approved the Challoner and Hadock editions of the Douay Rheims Bible?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #37 on: September 18, 2018, 12:19:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on September 18, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
    It is unlikely that you could understand it .

    I do not mean that as a slur on Meg's intelligence . I mean that the English of that time is significantly different from that which we speak.

    I probably wouldn't easily understand it; that's true. But I love old English classics and my family have been English-speakers for a very long time.

    Here are a few Old English words from the 14th century, along with their modern translations:

    Again-stand. . . . . withstand
    Anker. . . . . . . . . . anchorite, anchoress
    Behite, behote. . . . promised
    Charge. . . . . . . . . . care, trouble
    Cunning. . . . . . . . . knowledge
    Deem . . . . . . . .  . . judge
    Disease. . . . . . . . . . distress
    Even-Christian. . . . . neighbor
    Grisling. . . . . . . . . . dreadful
    Meed . . . . . . . . . . . . reward
    Namely. . . . . . . . . . . specially
    Murk. . . . . . . . . . . . .dark
    Onliness. . . . . . . . . . .solitude
    Oned . . . . . . . . . . . . united
    Soothfast . . . . . . . . . truthful
    Trowth . . . . . . . . . . . belief
    Wissing . . . . . . . . . . .teaching, directing
    Worship . . . . . . . . . . .honor
    Stead . . . . . . . . . . . . .place

    Hopefully there is an English translation (hard copy) available to purchase somewhere. I wouldn't be able to read a Latin version.
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #38 on: September 18, 2018, 12:39:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 18, 2018, 12:19:04 PM
    Here are a few Old English words from the 14th century, along with their modern translations:
    Old English is the language spoken by Anglo Saxons up to around 1150.  It is a completely different language from the one we speak.  Middle English refers to language spoken from around 1150 to around 1500.  This is the language of the Wycliffe Bible (heretical) and Chaucer.  Meg gave examples from Middle English, not Old English.

    The next stage is Early Modern English.  Works of this period include, Shakespeare's, the King James Bible (heretical) and the original Douay-Rheims.  Most of us can only understand this English with some difficulty.  

    Modern English, the language of  the Challoner edition and also what we speak, begins towards the end of the 17th century.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #39 on: September 18, 2018, 12:40:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on September 18, 2018, 12:39:14 PM
    Old English is the language spoken by Anglo Saxons up to around 1150.  It is a completely different language from the one we speak.  Middle English refers to language spoken from around 1150 to around 1500.  This is the language of the Wycliffe Bible (heretical) and Chaucer.  Meg gave examples from Middle English, not Old English.

    The next stage is Early Modern English.  Works of this period include, Shakespeare's, the King James Bible (heretical) and the original Douay-Rheims.  Most of us can only understand this English with some difficulty.  

    Modern English, the language of  the Challoner edition and also what we speak, begins towards the end of the 17th century.

    Whatever.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #40 on: September 18, 2018, 04:50:38 PM »
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    • Another perspective on Challoner:

    The present Bible is the Challoner revision (1749-1752) of the Douay-Rheims Bible. Catholics owe the saintly Bishop Richard Challoner (1691-1781) a great debt of gratitude for undertaking this work. Challoner was one of those courageous priests who traveled around offering Mass secretly for small groups during the religious persecutions in England. Such Catholics needed a Bible, and had needed one for 100 years. The Douay-Rheims Bible had been printed a few times on the Continent but had never really spread to England. Some Catholics in England were even reading the King James version--a situation which Bishop Challoner knew had to be rectified.

    Some of the passages in the original Douay-Rheims Bible were needlessly obscure. As an extreme example, Ephesians 6:12 read, "For our wrestling is not against flesh and bloud: but against Princes and Potestats, against the rectors of the world of this dankness, against the spirituals of wickedness in the celestials." The spellings were archaic, and the verses were not set off by new lines for clarity. Challoner rectified these problems, checking carefully against the Clementine Vulgate and the original-language texts. On the whole, Bishop Challoner's revisions were minor. He replaced certain anglicized Latin words and archaic words and expressions, rearranged the word order of the sentences, and yet maintained the overall word-for-word accuracy of the 16th/17th-century Douay-Rheims Bible.

    The Challoner revision of the Douay-Rheims Bible was a godsend. It became the standard Catholic Bible in English until the mid-20th century (when the Confraternity Bible was published). It continued to be called the "Douay-Rheims" because of its similarity to the original Douay-Rheims Bible. The great work English Versions of the Bible, by Frs. Pope and Bullough, states that English-speaking Catholics the world over owe Dr. Challoner an immense debt of gratitude, for he provided them for the first time in history with a portable, cheap and readable version of the Bible, which has stood the test of 200 years of use. Moreover, it is more accurate than any modern Bible because it is based on ancient texts, no longer extant, which were "captured" and "frozen," so to speak, by St. Jerome (342-420) in his Latin Vulgate. The Douay-Rheims is thus the most reliable English-language Bible there is. We look forward to the day when the Christian world will rediscover this fact and come to a renewed appreciation of the monumental work of St. Jerome, of the Douay-Rheims translators and of Bishop Richard Challoner--men who were raised up by God to make the Bible available to the English-speaking world.

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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #41 on: September 19, 2018, 09:35:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on September 18, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
    This edition is also condemned by the website that happenby linked.
    Really?  Oh wow...   :(
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #42 on: September 19, 2018, 10:39:58 AM »
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    • There are some fanatics who think the Challoner edition of the Douay-Rheims is little better than a Protestant bible.

    Needless to say, these fanatics are wrong, being ignorant about a great many things.

    First of all, the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church approved the Challoner version. Case closed.

    Second of all, there's nothing wrong with the original Douay-Rheims (1500's version) just like there isn't anything wrong with wearing a tweed sportscoat, a top hat, and a monocle. Nothing sinful about that at all. It's harmless quirkiness. But don't be surprised when fellow Trads call you "Mr. Peanut".

    So you can say, "I like the original Douay Rheims" and/or "I like to wear a top hat", and we can all respond, "Good for you."

    But when you elevate it to some kind of dogma, claiming that the Crisis in the Church started years before it actually did, because the Church approved the improved Challoner revision -- that is where the real problem starts.

    I've actually had to ban a few people from CathInfo over the years because they thought the Crisis in the Church (as we know it today) began with the First Vatican Council (1870) or even the Council of Trent. You know, that great Council that took place in the 1500's.

    But guess what we call people who broke off from the Catholic Church in the 1500's, because it "went bad"? There's a common term for them: Protestants.

    Besides, the Challoner revision is slavishly accurate to the original Latin Vulgate. How many of you can argue with me on that? You first have to know Latin.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #43 on: September 19, 2018, 10:54:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on September 19, 2018, 09:35:01 AM
    Really?  Oh wow...   :(
    I'm not sure it is of a serious concern for regular Catholic folks who desire to read the gospel, but it could be more serious for those studying a particular subject in depth where the information must be more precise in order to escape doubt.  However, those studying Scripture in depth have other obstacles including intellectual honesty that plays a big role in Scriptural exegeses and the dishonest ones will butcher the more precise texts anyway.  In the meantime, the Church endorsed the Challoner for a reason, it is overall good and correct.  For those of us that do not want to be steered by less than exact translations, or be subject to footnotes exclusive to that edition that wind up being the opinion of the translator, or who need the accuracy of the original regarding a particular matter, the fewer persons who handle/translate any edition of Scripture, the better.  Especially when so many scholars express concern over the differences.     
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    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Douay-Rheims Bible is obsolete
    « Reply #44 on: September 19, 2018, 11:52:17 AM »
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    • I was surprised to find this in the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1909  
    It states:

        "Although the Bibles in use at the present day by the Catholics
    of England and Ireland are popularly styled the Douay Version, they
    are most improperly so called; they are founded, with more or less
    alteration, on a series of revisions undertaken by Bishop Challoner in
    1749-52 . . .

        The changes introduced by him were so considerable that,
    according to Cardinal Newman, they almost amounted to a new
    translation. So, also, Cardinal Wiseman wrote, 'To call it any longer
    the Douay or Rheimish Version is an abuse of terms. It has been
    altered and modified until scarcely any verse remains as it was
    originally published.' In nearly every case Challoner's changes took
    the form of approximating to the Authorized Version [King James]. . ."
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