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Poll

Would you support gender-segregated seating in your chapel?

Yes
20 (46.5%)
No
23 (53.5%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Voting closed: September 15, 2018, 07:41:21 PM

Author Topic: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?  (Read 3510 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
« on: September 01, 2018, 07:41:21 PM »
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  • An interesting thread was started on Cathinfo recently which broached the issue of gender-segregated seating, as was the custom in the early Church, and as was advocated by the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Can. 1262.1):

    "Conformable to ancient discipline, it is desirable that the women be separarted from the men in church."

    The purpose of this thread is to reveal contemporary attitudes on this issue among "trads," to see whether reinstating this custom/law in traditional chapels (of whatever stripe) would have support among the laity.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #1 on: September 01, 2018, 08:10:53 PM »
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  • As long as the 1-3 year olds go with the men.  ;)
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #2 on: September 01, 2018, 08:19:27 PM »
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  • The purpose of this thread is to reveal contemporary attitudes on this issue among "trads," to see whether reinstating this custom/law in traditional chapels (of whatever stripe) would have support among the laity.
    I don't think I am qualified to vote as I don't consider myself a "trad" but a Catholic.
    I cannot recall in my lifetime seeing a Catholic Church where men and women are, or even could be, segregated from each other. Though the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Can. 1262.1) states it is
    desirable that the women be separated from the men in church, it is not a mandate.

    In the days of the Holy Name Society and the Sacred Heart Sodality, on two Sundays a month (some) men and women from the congregation would attend Mass separately but they were not segregated in the sense that is meant here.

    Besides I don't even have access to a traditional chapel.

    I was surprised that the 1917 Code said that.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #3 on: September 01, 2018, 08:21:24 PM »
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  • As long as the 1-3 year olds go with the men.  ;)
    All boys over the age of two should be with the men. However, if a man has to watch two or more of his sons, and if they are all under the age of seven, he could find it hard to pray, and those men around him may be very distracted.

    Similarly if a woman has three to five girls all under the age of seven, she could have her hands full. My own three grandchildren who are under the age of seven are very difficult to control as the two oldest fight.

    The older children could watch the younger ones to a point.

    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #4 on: September 01, 2018, 08:47:09 PM »
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  • As recently as 100 years ago young children didn't attend Mass.  I get this from reading the lives of many saints where they will mention taking turns to attend Sunday Mass.  Parents often didn't even attend their own child's Baptism, having the Godparents take the child to the church.
     
    In the SSPX chapels of today, children as young as 2 weeks are in attendance.  
    If women and children are separated from the men, this would last about 2 weeks, as the women couldn't control the number of little children in attendance.
     
    Society is trying and succeeding in destroying the family.  Why should we even consider separating a family at Mass when in some cases Mass is one of the few times in the week they are all together?
     
    Then there are us seniors.  Often, (very often) one spouse is the care giver of the other.  They are familiar with every little tell tale movement that indicates a potential problem and many, though they look OK are there only because they have assistance.  Think of the spouse with mild to moderate dementia.  Without the spouse right beside them neither would be able to attend Mass.  Remember, people are living a lot longer now than 100 years ago.
     
    Segregation may sound desirable but in this day an age I don't believe it to be practical.  Better to preach and practice self discipline.
     
    The family that prays together stays together.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #5 on: September 01, 2018, 08:55:47 PM »
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  • As recently as 100 years ago young children didn't attend Mass.  I get this from reading the lives of many saints where they will mention taking turns to attend Sunday Mass.  Parents often didn't even attend their own child's Baptism, having the Godparents take the child to the church.
     
    In the SSPX chapels of today, children as young as 2 weeks are in attendance.  
    If women and children are separated from the men, this would last about 2 weeks, as the women couldn't control the number of little children in attendance.
     
    Society is trying and succeeding in destroying the family.  Why should we even consider separating a family at Mass when in some cases Mass is one of the few times in the week they are all together?
     
    Then there are us seniors.  Often, (very often) one spouse is the care giver of the other.  They are familiar with every little tell tale movement that indicates a potential problem and many, though they look OK are there only because they have assistance.  Think of the spouse with mild to moderate dementia.  Without the spouse right beside them neither would be able to attend Mass.  Remember, people are living a lot longer now than 100 years ago.
     
    Segregation may sound desirable but in this day an age I don't believe it to be practical.  Better to preach and practice self discipline.
     
    The family that prays together stays together.
    You bring up a good point. If an older gentleman is widowed and in a wheelchair, and his nurse brings him to church, she has to remain with him. Perhaps his daughter will take him to church. In either case, the lady needs to remain to help the elderly gentleman.

    Perhaps at the back of the church, it would be acceptable to have those who are wheelchair bound without the necessity of having them segregated.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #6 on: September 01, 2018, 09:16:13 PM »
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  • Yes. I think that gender-segregated seating would be a great idea.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #7 on: September 01, 2018, 09:18:54 PM »
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  • As recently as 100 years ago young children didn't attend Mass.  I get this from reading the lives of many saints where they will mention taking turns to attend Sunday Mass.  Parents often didn't even attend their own child's Baptism, having the Godparents take the child to the church.
     
    In the SSPX chapels of today, children as young as 2 weeks are in attendance.  
    If women and children are separated from the men, this would last about 2 weeks, as the women couldn't control the number of little children in attendance.
     
    Society is trying and succeeding in destroying the family.  Why should we even consider separating a family at Mass when in some cases Mass is one of the few times in the week they are all together?
     
    Then there are us seniors.  Often, (very often) one spouse is the care giver of the other.  They are familiar with every little tell tale movement that indicates a potential problem and many, though they look OK are there only because they have assistance.  Think of the spouse with mild to moderate dementia.  Without the spouse right beside them neither would be able to attend Mass.  Remember, people are living a lot longer now than 100 years ago.
     
    Segregation may sound desirable but in this day an age I don't believe it to be practical.  Better to preach and practice self discipline.
     
    The family that prays together stays together.

    Interesting post:

    You begin by observing the old common sense practice of families leaving infant children at home (and taking turns at Sunday Mass), but then finish by suggesting this practice (and segregation generally) would destroy the family...even though families were much more stable when this law was in effect than they are since its (alleged) abrogation.

    You therefore view it as evil, apparently on the basis of rationalized inconveniences and subjective/personal hardships, but exceptions do not disprove the general rule (particularly when one compares the Church of that era compared to our own, and views the fruits of both Codes of Canon Law).

    As far as preaching and practicing self-discipline, I recall a sermon on this subject from Fr. Beck, in which he observed "men are like microwaves, and women are like ovens:

    The latter take a long time to warm up, but the microwave is hot immediately."  This means that accidental glances are temptations, which no degree of vigilance can prevent, and (quoting Fr. Beck again) "those women who say men just need to control themselves are naive about human nature."  I can't remember, and don't want to put words into his mouth, but he MAY have even suggested that retort is disingenuous (the sermon was on the subject of modest clothing for women).

    PS: The slogan that "the family that prays together stays together" does refers to prayer in the home, not Mass attendance.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Nick

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #8 on: September 01, 2018, 10:20:57 PM »
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  • Uh oh, the burka brigade is back.
    What has been keeping the TradiLand Taliban occupied so far ?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #9 on: September 01, 2018, 10:56:48 PM »
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  • Uh oh, the burka brigade is back.
    What has been keeping the TradiLand Taliban occupied so far ?

    This comment is an insult to the Church, who proposed it as Law, and practiced segregation from the time of the Nicene and post-Nicene Fathers, until the (alleged) abrogation of the 1917 Code.

    I would say that is ban-worthy.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #10 on: September 01, 2018, 10:59:54 PM »
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  • So during Mass I must be separated from my husband and sit alone with my children because I’m a distraction to other men in Church?
    Even though I dress modestly with my head and hair entirely covered? 

    You know I’ve always thought sitting closer to the front for Mass was the ideal, especially for the children to learn the Mass, but perhaps sitting in the back to avoid glaring eyes would be a better idea? 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #11 on: September 01, 2018, 11:03:44 PM »
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  • So during Mass I must be separated from my husband and sit alone with my children because I’m a distraction to other men in Church?
    Even though I dress modestly with my head and hair entirely covered?

    Either you accept the universal disciplines of the Church (and trust Her reasons for enacting Her laws), or you do not.

    If you do not, you are part of the problem.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nick

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #12 on: September 01, 2018, 11:08:00 PM »
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  • This comment is an insult to the Church, who proposed it as Law, and practiced segregation from the time of the Nicene and post-Nicene Fathers, until the (alleged) abrogation of the 1917 Code.

    I would say that is ban-worthy.
    It's an insult to you only Sean. Of course if you insist on conflating your pontificating with "the mind of the church " 
    Enjoy the sound of your own voice in the echo chamber you're attempting to create here.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #13 on: September 01, 2018, 11:11:10 PM »
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  • It's an insult to you only Sean. Of course if you insist on conflating your pontificating with "the mind of the church "
    Enjoy the sound of your own voice in the echo chamber you're attempting to create here.

    You have equated the traditional practice of the Church, embodied in Her Canon Law, with Islamic Sharia.

    You need to hang out on EWTN or something.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nick

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    Re: Would you support gender-segregated seating at your chapel?
    « Reply #14 on: September 01, 2018, 11:15:07 PM »
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  • Sean Sweetie,
    Put on your blindfold and go and frolic in the nearest busy motorway.
    You're almost guarenteed success in that endeavor.