Choir needs to be restricted to competent singers.  Those who want to join should be given the opportunity to learn to sing before being asked to sing.

The choir should be led by men.  If women are to sing, they should be kept adequately separated.  

Tele - I didn't say the link was traditional, just a reference point.  That author's write-up is certainly on the modernist side and probably (guessing here) what neo-trads would say about the issue.  

Quote from: bowler quoting bowler

If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the women responding.

If the Church had continued to not allow women to respond and sing at the mass, I doubt the Novus Ordo would even have existed for more than a passing moment. The New Mass lives only because of women.

This is an interesting take on things.  

It goes hand-in-hand with the women's liberation movement.  One of
Communism's primary objectives was to get the women out of the homes
and into industry and the workplace.  

St. Paul teaches that women should not talk in church.  Modern women
don't care much for what St. Paul has to say quite often, but they are
wont to claim that "talking has nothing to do with singing."  How do you
like them apples??

Choirs sound much better with men singing alone, for one simple reason:
When men and women sing together, in so-called unison, they are an
octave apart, and when two voices sing separated by the 8th interval,
it imparts a distracting, harsh sound to the music, in fact, some may say
it isn't even "musical."   Not to say that the 8th interval is never appropriate,
it's just something that should be used in certain cases:  not ALL THE TIME.

Think of it as a "bull in a china closet" or a giant stomping around in boots.

Ragtime piano music has a lot of octaves in the left hand, which gives it
a pseudo-percussion aspect.  It is not appropriate for a love ballad or the
contemplation of deep mysteries, or prayer to God.  

In the first half of the 20th century, there were some men's groups who
made the rounds in traveling performances, then after WWII these groups
gradually faded away or began taking on women singers.  Today there are
some male only groups, not a few of them apparently filled with "men" of
the soft variety, like the Los Angeles Men's gαy Chorus, or Chanticleer.
Colleges and universities used to all have "Glee Club" which was originally
all men.  Gradually, these have started allowing females.  

Barbershop Quartet music (S.P.E.B.S.Q.S.A.) is exclusively men, for there is
a women's organization just for women:  the Sweet Adelines.  Music by
each is obviously very different.  The men have a full range sound, with the
highest part, the "Tenor" (which is more akin to Counter-Tenor in Classical
vocal music) singing as high as B-flat above Middle C.  Luciano Pavarotti
was the "king" of the high-C, which he was renowned for being able to
sing repeatedly, without apparent fatigue.  

Women's BSQS is strident and thin, for it lacks the support of the lower
range.  It has its place, no doubt, but it just can't compare to the men's
sound.  When the men get their vowels coordinated and their intonation
just right on certain chords, additional voices multiply above them,
called "overtones."  But women can never achieve "undertones" because
sound doesn't work that way.  I have found it interesting to hear some of
them claim that they can get undertones, but I think it's just a kind of
legend.

Choirs that have men singing the melody an octave below the women are
quite irksome for me to hear.  It's the sound you'll get with congregational
singing, automatically.  If you take a piece like "Christ Jesus, victor, Christ
Jesus, ruler" which is how the chorus begins, and sing only the first half
which is the verses, in unison, and sing the chorus in harmony, it is a
good compromise.  You get the open, full sound of quadraphonic voices -
provided, that is, that you have S.A.T.B. parts - for the chorus, which makes
for a great relief from the heaviness of the verses.  But it works for that
piece because the verses can be contrasted thus from the chorus.  

Thy reign extend O King Benign
To every land and nation,
For in Thy kingdom, Lord devine,
Alone we find salvation.

(Chorus):
Christ Jesus, victor, Christ Jesus, ruler,
Christ Jesus Lord and Redeemer.

The chorus turns into a good flowering of the work when it goes from
"...we find salvation..." in unison, to "...Christ Jesus, victor..." in harmony.  

The same idea works on "God Father, praise and glory":

God Father, praise and glory
Thy children bring to thee.
Good will and peace to mankind
Shall now forever be.

(Chorus):
O most Holy Trinity,
Undivided Unity;
Holy God, Mighty God,
God Immortal, be adored.

is a brother singing the traditional version, but the words
typed on the description are not traditional.

In my own lifetime I have seen a lot of changes in the "rules" for how
music is done at Mass.  A lot of it has been to the detriment of the Mass.
One thing is for sure:  prior to Vatican II there was a pandemic and solid
perception amongst Catholics that the RULES for music were hard and
fast, and should not be tampered with.  There were rules for everything.  
Catholics were at home with the idea that things are done a certain way
because they've been don that way before, and that makes it proper.
Propriety was a revered value, and it applied all throughout the culture.

In the Russian Orthodox, from what I hear, it is unimaginable for women
to sing in choir for Divine Liturgy.  Don't quote me on that, but I'd be
interested to hear of others' testimonies.  Recordings I have heard use
a lot of 5th intervals, which is not the tradition of Western music.  
Gregorian Chant is exclusively one line of voices, or TRUE unison.  That is,
everyone sings the same note, all the time.  The entire Liber Usualis is
chock full of pages of ancient melodies, originally taken from the ancient
Jєωιѕн temple chants, all with only one note to be sung at any given
moment.  When G.P. de Palestrina came along in the 16th century, there
was no harmony going on at Mass, anywhere in the West.  His
compositions were around for several decades before finally they were
allowed at Mass, very reluctantly, but apparently because of popular
acclaim.  Italians can get very emotional, especially about music.  

How was that development viewed in Russia, which was then just 500
years into their schism, since 1064?  

"...The New Mass lives only because of women. .."

I thought I was the only one that realized that fact.

Good on you.

Women should sing.

While giving birth, their cries are a song unto the Lord announcing compliance with His will.

While tending to her children, her Psalms are as balm to her children's souls.

While doing her girl work around the house, and my personal favorite, while serving a meal to her husband.

There is nothing more beautiful than a woman singing.

When women leave their place, bad things happen: the Novus Ordo.*

Pablito, just to let you know that a Hindu editor of a paper once wrote an article saying that women should be admitted to the (Catholic!) priesthood because by far, women make up most of the numbers at Catholic religious services. (He meant the New Mass, of course).  

It does seem that whenever women "move" in, men "move" out.  Seems to be true even in the secular professions:  medicine, education, engineering.

They certainly haven't left medicine and engineering!

As for education, do you think men are welcome there?

Women didn't "force" their way in.  The government is forcing them in, and forcing better qualified men out because of it.

Wherever feminism is in charge men have to deal not only with the job but with the politics of a feminized work-place.  Most men are barely tolerated by the women in such a situation, and the men women favor still have to be very careful of their vindictiveness.

Women demand to bring their special social status as women to the places men have worked in higher status careers.  All in all, it serves to undermine the relative status of most men in the minds of women, which is what careerist feminism is really about, letting women closer to the "high status" men, and marginalizing the rest of them.

I believe women were brought in to sing, because they filled in for the boys, who used to sing in large numbers. But since boys barely received any musical education, women were reluctantly brought in, but only as support. Thus, the 1958 Instruction. Though of course in the Novus Ordo, women, as I've noticed, were mostly directing! If it was strictly regulated, it would have been fine, with all the prohibitions enforced; unfortunately, the liturgical modernists used this, as other things, as stepping-stones for their agenda.

Does anyone know about the Eastern rites, and what their traditions are?  

I have heard that women do not sing in the Russian Orthodox tradition at
all..  There was a troupe of monks that came to Los Angeles some years
ago and sang a concert at the UCLA Royce Hall to a sellout crowd, and it
was a half-circle of men directed by one monk, singing all Russian, and it
was very impressive, even though I had never heard most of the music
before.  The music they sang was such that I cannot imagine how the
voices of women could have made it any better, but rather would have
necessarily taken away from its effectiveness.  

The thought occurred to me at the time, that whenever I have heard
Barbershop Quartet Singing done with one woman in the group, it was
not impressive at all.  And somehow, liberals seem to enjoy BSQS all right.  

I don't get how that works, though:  why liberals would like something
that would seem to conflict with their agenda of equality of the sexes.

Any thoughts??  


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
FWIW, this year, 2012, a quartet from Stockholm, Sweden named Ringmasters,
broke all records by winning the International Competition as a foreign
quartet, for the first time in history.  There are BSQS quartet organizations
all over the world but none of them outside the USA had ever won the
"big trophy" until this year, 2012.

I highly recommend hearing their posted video, Love Me and the World is Mine,
their winning performance -- 46,030 views as of today.  I believe this is an
excellent example of the art possible by 4 male voices that would be simply
laid to waste by the inclusion of any single female voice, IMHO.  If you are
not familiar with Barbershop Quartet Singing, or if you think you "don't like
it," then you may have to hear this recording once a day for a week before
you begin to appreciate something you were ignorant about.  This is true
art, no question about it.  Visit Ringmasters at www.ringmasters.se

On a personal note, a lot of BSQS is laced with impurity and such wickedness,
which objectively detracts from its value, and this song, linked, is a good
example of an innocent and beautiful composition, and the fact that it won
the International Award is rather an encouraging sign for new developments.
All that salacious elements can do is degrade art, in general.

It's worth thinking about how these 4 men are singing a foreign language
with English, and yet have a most American pronunciation of every syllable
in this work.  Ringmasters has spent 7 years training, traveling, competing
learning and working up to this level of perfection, and their victory is a
culmination of some twenty thousand man-hours of devoted effort..  
I entirely doubt they would have anything to do with "adding a woman" to
their act.

Here is their trophy photo:



So it isn't a matter of religious principles or doctrine exclusively, nor does
it have anything to do with any "discrimination" or "attitude problem," but
rather it's a natural, human fact of life:  some things are better when there
are no women involved.  And that is not a "misogynistic" statement, but
rather a stark reality of real life, instead of artificial subjectivist fantasy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also, I have heard that the Armenian and Coptic Catholic Churches do not
use women in their choirs, but I don't know how reliable that is.  

Then I heard that the Greek Catholics and Greek Orthodox do use women
in their choirs.  Once again, I can't say how reliable that is.  

So if anyone has better info, that would be great.