Author Topic: Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion  (Read 4161 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
« on: October 24, 2012, 03:13:32 PM »
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  • From Nicholas Wansbutter, Esq (on IA forum):

    Quote
    I agree with the above. I've generally tried to stay out of the mud-slinging and have refrained from responding to the many sanctimonious (when they weren't outright hateful) posts from certain forum members. But I also agree that some "Grumpy Old Oysters" have written bad things as well that I've not been comfortable with. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter "which side is nastier", though.

    Today is a sad day, and I've been feeling more exhausted than usual. But I'd like to address a few of the accusations against Bp. Williamson. PATRICIUS wrote:


    Quote
    Had he stuck only to what he was consecrated to do, he probably wouldn't be in this mess now.



    I suppose this begs the question: what was Bp. Williamson consecrated to do? To only confer sacraments and keep his mouth shut? Or to only speak about "spiritual" matters as if he and his flock are angels?

    I don't really understand this mentality that BpW, or any cleric for that matter, is somehow no longer allowed to speak of things other than religion. No wonder there are so few vocations among Traditionalists if this is a widely held view, since it is scarcely a human existance to be forced to have Asbergers-syndrome-like obsession with one topic to the exclusion of all else. I suppose this same logic would condemn Vivaldi for daring to compose music (not something he was ordained to do) or certainly Copernicus ought not to have meddled in astronomy (according to Dr. Woods' How the Catholic Church Build Western Civilization, Copernicus was a priest).

    But setting all that aside, given the timing, it is clear that Bp. Williamson's sounding of the alarm against the latest dealings with Rome and opposing a deal along with two other bishops is the reason for expulsion at this time. And thus, it seems to me, that it is precisely because of doing what he was consecrated for (teaching and defending the faith) that Bp. Williamson is "in this mess now".

    To John McFarland, I think it is true that Bp. Williamson had a lot of influence on the U.S. during his years there, although I would call his influence positive. I would also ask, who sent Bp. Williamson to the U.S. in the first place? The same man who put Bp. Williamson's name forward as the candidate for sole bishop of the S.S.P.X under the 1988 agreement: Abp. Lefebvre.

    It would also seem that there has been a certain "de-Williamsonizing" in the U.S., although I disagree with the terminology. I would call it a de-integralizing, since it was intergral Catholicism not "Williamsonism" that Bp. Williamson taught. To call his insistance on a Catholicism that is not compartimentalised and which informs all of our life, I would argue, is mischaracterized to be called "socio-political enthusiasms". On the other hand, I would call this supposed "mere" Traditionalism minus the "socio-political enthusiasms" a brand of 1950s Catholicism where Catholicism is relegated to Sunday but has nothing to to with the rest of our lives.

    I think it is also unjust, and unsupported by evidence, to suggest that Bp. Williamson's opposition to a deal with Rome has anything to do with his exile to Argentina. Anyone who knows Bp. Williamson knows that he is without ambition or the sort of monstrous pride/egomania suggested by such an accusation. As one former seminarian said, Bp. Williamson would be perfectly happy if he were locked in a dungeon. No, having known and worked with Bp. Williamson personally over several years, I say that Bp. Williamson is a man of principle, concerned with truth and personalities or egotism did not play into this.

    Rebellion is a word anathema to Bp. Williamson, and although his enemies frequently accuse him of a "rebellious spirit" this is not the case at all. The amount of abuse he has put up with humbly and meekly since 2009 would shock many and to me has been proof positive that he is no rebel BUT he is a bishop doing what he believes to be his job.

    Now, John McFarland and others may accuse me of "idolatry" towards Bp. Williamson. Well, nemo iudex in causa sua so I cannot say this is true or false, but I would offer as evidence in my defence that I recognize that Bp. Williamson is not infallible or impeccable. I disagree with him on certain things but at the end of the day it is Bp. Williamson's teachings not his person that attracts me to him.
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    Offline Telesphorus

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #1 on: October 24, 2012, 03:24:55 PM »
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  • Exactly!  

    Where is the emphasis on the Social Reign of Christ?

    Can anyone, truly, seriously believe that someone willing to throw overboard his fellow bishop over political pressure really cares about it?  

    Since when is the Social Reign of Christ the King about people in St. Mary's running for office.  That's the lip-service Father Rostand paid it!



    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #2 on: October 24, 2012, 03:28:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    I think it is true that Bp. Williamson had a lot of influence on the U.S. during his years there, although I would call his influence positive. I would also ask, who sent Bp. Williamson to the U.S. in the first place? The same man who put Bp. Williamson's name forward as the candidate for sole bishop of the S.S.P.X under the 1988 agreement: Abp. Lefebvre.


    Well stated and his influence is positive in very many other places and districts.

    Quote
    I say that Bp. Williamson is a man of principle, concerned with truth and personalities or egotism did not play into this.


    He is only continuing the work of Archbishop Lefebvre.

     :cheers:

    Offline Graham

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #3 on: October 24, 2012, 03:30:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Bp. Williamson is a man of principle, concerned with truth and personalities or egotism did not play into this.


    I recently received an edifying proof of this. "The times are becoming urgent. Compared with validity, the rest is sentimentality."

    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 03:35:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    That's the lip-service Father Rostand paid it!


    Given how his "Against the Rumor" propaganda failed, it is plausible to suggest Fr Rostand brought in Brian Mc Call and John Mc Farland, both lawyer's to take a stab at weakening a resistance.

    The Bishop might of got the boot but there is a resistance and the expulsion will see an implosion of anger of people who "have not spoken yet".


    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #5 on: October 24, 2012, 03:42:46 PM »
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  • http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=11200
    Quote
    I would not want be in +Fellay's shoes.


    Neither would I. It was said to me over 18 months ago that "Bishop Fellay is finished". I agreed at the time and agree now it is +Fellay who is weakened.

    Offline stgobnait

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #6 on: October 24, 2012, 03:47:09 PM »
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  •  i hope your right .. john grace... :furtive: on all counts.... :furtive:

    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 03:55:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: stgobnait
    i hope your right .. john grace... :furtive: on all counts.... :furtive:


    On all counts of what? Keeping in mind what Matthew did post, I can't see where the Bishop has abandoned the principles  of the Archbishop. Are you trolling stgobnait?.

    What Matthew posted from IA are statements of fact.


    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 04:02:27 PM »
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  • The piece from Nicholas Wansbutter, Esq  is an excellent summary of which most people would agree.

    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 04:14:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: stgobnait
    i hope your right .. john grace... :furtive: on all counts.... :furtive:


    It's not about me or me being right but about the facts speaking for themselves.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 04:53:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    From Nicholas Wansbutter, Esq (on IA forum):

    Quote
    I agree with the above. I've generally tried to stay out of the mud-slinging and have refrained from responding to the many sanctimonious (when they weren't outright hateful) posts from certain forum members. But I also agree that some "Grumpy Old Oysters" have written bad things as well that I've not been comfortable with. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter "which side is nastier", though.

    Today is a sad day, and I've been feeling more exhausted than usual. But I'd like to address a few of the accusations against Bp. Williamson. PATRICIUS wrote:


    Quote
    Had he stuck only to what he was consecrated to do, he probably wouldn't be in this mess now.



    I suppose this begs the question: what was Bp. Williamson consecrated to do? To only confer sacraments and keep his mouth shut? Or to only speak about "spiritual" matters as if he and his flock are angels?

    I don't really understand this mentality that BpW, or any cleric for that matter, is somehow no longer allowed to speak of things other than religion. No wonder there are so few vocations among Traditionalists if this is a widely held view, since it is scarcely a human existance to be forced to have Asbergers-syndrome-like obsession with one topic to the exclusion of all else. I suppose this same logic would condemn Vivaldi for daring to compose music (not something he was ordained to do) or certainly Copernicus ought not to have meddled in astronomy (according to Dr. Woods' How the Catholic Church Build Western Civilization, Copernicus was a priest).

    But setting all that aside, given the timing, it is clear that Bp. Williamson's sounding of the alarm against the latest dealings with Rome and opposing a deal along with two other bishops is the reason for expulsion at this time. And thus, it seems to me, that it is precisely because of doing what he was consecrated for (teaching and defending the faith) that Bp. Williamson is "in this mess now".

    To John McFarland, I think it is true that Bp. Williamson had a lot of influence on the U.S. during his years there, although I would call his influence positive. I would also ask, who sent Bp. Williamson to the U.S. in the first place? The same man who put Bp. Williamson's name forward as the candidate for sole bishop of the S.S.P.X under the 1988 agreement: Abp. Lefebvre.

    It would also seem that there has been a certain "de-Williamsonizing" in the U.S., although I disagree with the terminology. I would call it a de-integralizing, since it was intergral Catholicism not "Williamsonism" that Bp. Williamson taught. To call his insistance on a Catholicism that is not compartimentalised and which informs all of our life, I would argue, is mischaracterized to be called "socio-political enthusiasms". On the other hand, I would call this supposed "mere" Traditionalism minus the "socio-political enthusiasms" a brand of 1950s Catholicism where Catholicism is relegated to Sunday but has nothing to to with the rest of our lives.

    I think it is also unjust, and unsupported by evidence, to suggest that Bp. Williamson's opposition to a deal with Rome has anything to do with his exile to Argentina. Anyone who knows Bp. Williamson knows that he is without ambition or the sort of monstrous pride/egomania suggested by such an accusation. As one former seminarian said, Bp. Williamson would be perfectly happy if he were locked in a dungeon. No, having known and worked with Bp. Williamson personally over several years, I say that Bp. Williamson is a man of principle, concerned with truth and personalities or egotism did not play into this.

    Rebellion is a word anathema to Bp. Williamson, and although his enemies frequently accuse him of a "rebellious spirit" this is not the case at all. The amount of abuse he has put up with humbly and meekly since 2009 would shock many and to me has been proof positive that he is no rebel BUT he is a bishop doing what he believes to be his job.

    Now, John McFarland and others may accuse me of "idolatry" towards Bp. Williamson. Well, nemo iudex in causa sua so I cannot say this is true or false, but I would offer as evidence in my defence that I recognize that Bp. Williamson is not infallible or impeccable. I disagree with him on certain things but at the end of the day it is Bp. Williamson's teachings not his person that attracts me to him.




    Nicholas knows how to cleverly "blend" with the Monty-Python game over at Ignis Ardens.



    He's respectful the game's facilitator "mother frump" and he doesn't get into the subject of the jews.

    As for the quote on John Macfarland's opinion?  
    He discredited himself as a neoSSPX legal troll, several weeks ago.

    After being banned here, poor John has resorted to sending-out pro-Fellay spam, to any trad email address list he can get his hands on.

     


     

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 05:15:13 PM »
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  • Quote
    He's respectful the game's facilitator "mother frump" and he doesn't get into the subject of the jews.


    Not wishing to bicker but I do disagree. Even this tirade against Clare is too much.Yes, I disagreed with them over removing a certain file because I know the information to be true, and certainly would have gone to court with them had it gone that far.

    You missed the point regarding  Nicholas Wansbutter, Esq

    As for Mc Farland, who really cares.

    Whilst I don't hate Patricius, I dislike him but hopefully people pray for him.

    As for the Jews,it's not necessary to be foaming at the mouth about them or on about them every day. Just be aware of them.


    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 05:20:37 PM »
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  • I specifically and intentionally highlighted two points which I thought were important.

    Quote
    I would also ask, who sent Bp. Williamson to the U.S. in the first place? The same man who put Bp. Williamson's name forward as the candidate for sole bishop of the S.S.P.X under the 1988 agreement: Abp. Lefebvre.


    Quote
    Bp. Williamson is a man of principle, concerned with truth and personalities or egotism did not play into this.


    Also
    Quote
    he is no rebel BUT he is a bishop doing what he believes to be his job.


    I believe Bishop Williamson is carrying out his duty as a Bishop. It's that simple.

    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 05:22:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    As for the quote on John Macfarland's opinion?  
    He discredited himself as a neoSSPX legal troll, several weeks ago.


    It's an open debate but every possibility Fr Rostand did ask him to step in. Has Mc Farland succeeded? No!

    Offline John Grace

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    Wise words about Bp Williamson expulsion
    « Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 05:24:39 PM »
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  • So now we have the priest, who the Archbishop and God chose to be Bishop being expelled from the Society.

     

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