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Author Topic: Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?  (Read 12167 times)

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Offline peterp

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  • In 1988 the situation was different:

    i) Archbishop Lefebvre had secured, in principle, from Rome permission to consecrate a bishop;
    ii) The archbishop relied on the permission in the May 5th protocol for consecrating: “You four will be bishops for the Church, at the service of the Society of St. Pius X, as laid out in the Protocol of May 5.”;
    iii) The bishop’s were to be auxiliaries of the Society itself and have no jurisdiction;
    iv) The bishop serve the Society only: “Do not ordain men who are on their own, and if they form part of a community, take a good look at the community.”;
    v) Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer were the last two bishops willing to make a stand against VII and their health was starting to fail. Hence, an act of necessity;

    None of this can be claimed by Bp. Williamson and his followers. There is no new state of necessity and there already exist three bishops who travel the world for confirmations and ordinations.

    I believe all would be excommunicated.


    Offline Ekim

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #1 on: March 16, 2015, 05:16:31 PM »
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  • Joking right? No new necessity?

    Think you should change your name to Rip Van Winkle.  Surely you've been asleep for quite some time.


    Offline peterp

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #2 on: March 16, 2015, 05:23:42 PM »
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  • Papal permission is required to consecrate a bishop. Archbishop Lefebvre sought it and obtained it (in principle). I believe if/when the time came the SSPX superior general would also seek permission because Society recognizes the pope.

    If bishop Williamson truly believes Francis to be pope, let us see his correspondence with the pontiff requesting permission. If he is doing all this of his own volition and without any contact with Rome or seeking approval from what he must see an the legitimate Church authority, how is this NOT schismatic?

    Offline ihsv

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 05:26:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: peterp
    Papal permission is required to consecrate a bishop. Archbishop Lefebvre sought it and obtained it (in principle). I believe if/when the time came the SSPX superior general would also seek permission because Society recognizes the pope.

    If bishop Williamson truly believes Francis to be pope, let us see his correspondence with the pontiff requesting permission. If he is doing all this of his own volition and without any contact with Rome or seeking approval from what he must see an the legitimate Church authority, how is this NOT schismatic?


    Define "Schismatic."  Then define "Disobedient."  Then we'll revisit your last question, if necessary.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline peterp

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #4 on: March 16, 2015, 05:26:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    Joking right? No new necessity?

    Think you should change your name to Rip Van Winkle.  Surely you've been asleep for quite some time.


    No, there exists a state of necessity. Hence the Society bishops. But there is no new necessity that requires new bishops.


    Offline Matto

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #5 on: March 16, 2015, 05:34:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: peterp
    Quote from: Ekim
    Joking right? No new necessity?

    Think you should change your name to Rip Van Winkle.  Surely you've been asleep for quite some time.


    No, there exists a state of necessity. Hence the Society bishops. But there is no new necessity that requires new bishops.


    So in other words the SSPX can do whatever it wants but outside of the SSPX the same actions are schismatic and wrong.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ekim

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 05:40:57 PM »
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  • OH STOP....YOUR KILLIN' ME!  My side hurts.  You crack me up!

    That's like a child asking a crack addicted, hallucinating, parent for permission to lead a normal life.  The inmates run the asylum.  They have proven by both word and deed that they have lost the faith.  Unlike JPII who was ordained and consecrated in the traditional rite thus arguably recognizing that he had the faith, there is absolutely no indication that Francis has ever had the faith, or was validly ordained (let alone consecrated).

    I would agree with your premise if it could be proven without a doubt that Francis EVER possessed the Catholic Faith. Sadly, much of what he has said, done, and written seems to contradict the very Faith he posses to transmit.

    Offline Ekim

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 05:46:31 PM »
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  • Equally as sad Mr. Van Winkle, is that the SSPX has also compromised the Dogmas of the Catholic faith even going as far as saying the New Mass is legitimate.  Even Bishop Tissier himself , in his Jan 2015 sermon condemned the new orientation of the SSPX.


    Offline Ekim

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 05:55:48 PM »
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  • "When an unjust government begins to imprison just men, then to find justice one must look to the condemned."

    When a sane man begins to seek advice, guidance, and permission from the insane man, what does this make him?  To maintain his sanity, it is only right and just to avoid such council and approval lest this man too become insane!

    Offline Ekim

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 06:07:55 PM »
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  • It could be argued that the pope in 1988 had some semblance, spark, of the true Catholic faith and hope beyond hope that this spark might glow just bright enough to do the right thing, hence the Archbishop's request.

    In 2015 no such spark exits.

    Much has changed from 1988 to 2015 indeed!!!

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 06:32:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: peterp
    Quote from: Ekim
    Joking right? No new necessity?

    Think you should change your name to Rip Van Winkle.  Surely you've been asleep for quite some time.


    No, there exists a state of necessity. Hence the Society bishops. But there is no new necessity that requires new bishops.


    Oh no? Who is going to preserve tradition now that +Fellay is on his way to Rome (if not secretly there?) Of course you don't see the need. For you is all about the Mass. Whichever Mass Summorum Pontificuм will tell you is the "1962" Missal. For the rest of us, is about preserving the faith. We didn't have cardinals against cardinals in 1988. We are in the wake of a great schism in Rome maybe before October. You must be drinking Fr. Pfluger's Koolaid. Read the news.


    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #11 on: March 16, 2015, 06:54:11 PM »
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  • peterp:
    Quote
    But there is no new necessity that requires new bishops.


    I suppose attacks on Dogma/ Doctrine are not of concern to you? It is becoming a disease under Francis.


    Saving Souls, Not Dogma, is the Heart of Pastoral Church Life
    IN ALL THINGS
    Drew Christiansen | Mar 11 2015 - 3:29pm | 4 comments

    Catholicism is undergoing an epochal transformation. For more than a millennium dogma has been the hard core of church life, defining who is in and who is out. Partisans have fought over the correct way to define Christian belief; they condemned their opponents and persecuted them as heretics.

    In this new era, the pertinent standard is the good of souls. With evangelization as the goal, boundaries are more porous. Openness to dissenters and critics, welcome for sinners and outreach to people on the margins of society are becoming the defining pattern of Catholic life. The challenge is to re-appropriate the heart of the Gospel: “The Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost” (Matt. 19:10).  The shift away from dogma as the center of church life to pastoral care has a lot to do with Pope Francis’ personal pastoral style, but the trend was already underway in the last years of Saint John Paul II’s pontificate.

    Saint John Paul, who himself took some hardline doctrinal stands, nonetheless, understood the egregious sins often “committed in service of the Truth,” that is orthodoxy. During the Day of Pardon in 2000, in the company of the Roman Curia, he asked God’s pardon for those offenses. In his homily, he urged, “Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken towards the followers of other religions.”

    Alongside John Paul, imploring God’s forgiveness, stood Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the then enforcer of orthodox belief (No accident of casting in that solemn moment!). Looking backwards, their humble repudiation of so much of what had been deadly serious in church life anticipated the greater change the church has begun to undergo from a heavily dogmatic to a more pastoral church.

    John Paul also smoothed the way in downgrading the role of dogma in Catholic life with his martyrial ecuмenism. Since the late Reformation both Catholics and Protestants had held that right doctrine rather than courageous behavior determined who was a true martyr. But St. John Paul took time out to pray at the tombs of Protestant martyrs, and he included Protestants slain or their faith among those honored in the Jubilee of the Martyrs in 2000.
    John Paul’s acts of devotion affirmed that the baptism that unites Catholics and Protestants weighs more heavily in the Christian life than the doctrines that historically had divided them. Virtue outshone truth. Putting errors of the church’s second millennium behind us, John Paul was modelling not a new, but a different type of Christianity in which asking forgiveness and reconciliation are more important than being right.

    Fourteen hundred years ago, Pope Gregory the Great exemplified this style of episcopal leadership and elaborated on it in his Regula pastoralis, “Pastoral Guidance,” better known as “Care of Souls (Cura animarum).” Originally a handbook for bishops, Gregory’s treatise quickly became a standard for priests and spiritual directors as well.

    The Unique Good of Souls. Like Pope Francis today, Gregory emphasized the role of bishops as pastors in contrast to their status as “nobles” in the church. Their principal concern should be the good of the souls entrusted to them. Like Pope Francis in “The Joy of the Gospel,” Gregory insisted on knowing the faithful in all their diverse conditions. The first axiom of pastoral practice, Gregory believed, was that there is no one set solution to every case.

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 07:06:50 PM »
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  • Only an arrogant person would attempt to define the lines of necessity.
    What pokes holes in this little stupid argument is that when the 1988 consecrations occured there were 6 bishops operating within or jointly with the SSPX, the 4 and Arb Lefebvre and De Castro Mayer. Bishop De Castro Mayer had a bishop selected to replace him after his death, who also eventually died and was replaced by a bishop who has openly admitted he pretended to co-consecrate hosts at a New Mass and also participated in liturgical abused. Another bishop was expelled from the SSPX and they have only 3 now from the 6 they started with. The burden of consecrating bishops is on the SG and he has demonstrated that he has no interest in consecrating bishops and that the SSPX ever growing flock will most likely become dependent upon the Novus Ordo bishops and later their priests. This is the "new necessity". The need is what defines the necessity and not pimsqueek pete.

    I will be at the consecration in Nova Friborgo and I will never accept the modernist excommunication as being valid.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline B from A

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 07:14:51 PM »
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  • Quote

    July 6, 1988

    Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin
    Prefect of the Congregation
    for Bishops


    Ecône, July 6, 1988

    Eminence,

    Gathered around our Superior General, the Superiors of the Districts, Seminaries and autonomous houses of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X think it good to respectfully express to you the following reflections.

    You thought it good, by your letter of July 1st, to inform Their Excellencies Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer, and the four Bishops whom they consecrated on June 30, at Ecône, of the excommunication latæ sententiæ.  We let you judge for yourself the value of such a declaration, coming from an authority who, in its exercise, breaks with all its predecessors down to Pope Pius XII, in worship, teaching and government of the Church.

    As for us, we are in full communion with all the Popes and Bishops before the Second Vatican Council, celebrating precisely the Mass which they codified and celebrated, teaching the Catechism which they drew up, standing up against the errors which they have many times condemned in their encyclicals and pastoral letters. We let you judge on which side the rupture is to be found. We are extremely saddened by the blindness of spirit and the hardening of heart of the Roman authorities.

    On the other hand, we have never wished to belong to this system which calls itself the Conciliar Church, and defines itself with the Novus Ordo Missæ, an ecuмenism which leads to indifferentism and the laicization of all society. Yes, we have no part, nullam partem habemus, with the pantheon of the religions of Assisi; our own excommunication by a decree of Your Eminence or of another Roman Congregation would only be the irrefutable proof of this. We ask for nothing better than to be declared out of communion with this adulterous spirit which has been blowing in the Church for the last 25 years; we ask for nothing better than to be declared outside of this impious communion of the ungodly. We believe in the One God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and we will always remain faithful to His unique Spouse, the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church.

    To be publicly associated with this sanction which is inflicted upon the six Catholic Bishops, Defenders of the Faith in its integrity and wholeness, would be for us a mark of honor and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful. They have indeed a strict right to know that the priests who serve them are not in communion with a counterfeit church, promoting evolution, pentecostalism and syncretism. In union with these faithful, we make ours the words of the Prophet: “Præparate corda vestra Domino et servite Illi soli: et liberabit vos de manibus inimicorum vestrorum. Convertimini ad Eum in toto corde vestro, et auferte deos alienos de medio vestri—Open your hearts to the Lord and serve Him only: and He will free you from the hands of your enemies. With all your heart return to Him, and take away from your midst any strange gods” (I Kings 7:3).95

    Confident in the protection of Her who has crushed all the heresies in the world, we assure Your Eminence of our dedication to Him Who is the only Way of salvation.

    Fr. Franz Schmidberger, Superior General
    Fr. Paul Aulagnier, District Superior, France
    Fr. Franz-Josef Maessen, District Superior, Germany
    Fr. Edward Black, District Superior, Great Britain
    Fr. Anthony Esposito, District Superior of Italy
    Fr. François Laisney, District Superior, United States
    Fr. Jacques Emily, District Superior of Canada
    Fr. Jean Michel Faure, District Superior of Mexico
    Fr. Gerard Hogan, District Superior of Australasia
    Fr. Alain Lorans, Superior, Seminary of Ecône
    Fr. Jean Paul André, Superior, Seminary of France
    Fr. Paul Natterer, Superior, Seminary of Germany
    Fr. Andrès Morello, Superior, Seminary of Argentina
    Fr. William Welsh, Superior, Seminary of Australia
    Fr. Michel Simoulin, Rector, St. Pius X University
    Fr. Patrice Laroche, Vice-Rector, Seminary of Ecône
    Fr. Philippe François, Superior, Belgium
    Fr. Roland de Mérode, Superior, Netherlands
    Fr. Georg Pflüger, Superior, Austria
    Fr. Guillaume Devillers, Superior, Spain
    Fr. Philippe Pazat, Superior, Portugal
    Fr. Daniel Couture, Superior, Ireland
    Fr. Patrick Groche, Superior, Gabon
    Fr. Frank Peek, Superior, Southern Africa


    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    Will Bp. Williamson (and the bishops elect) be excommunicated?
    « Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 11:05:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    ...

    That's like a child asking a crack addicted, hallucinating, parent for permission to lead a normal life.  The inmates run the asylum.


    This.
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!