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Author Topic: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops  (Read 6678 times)

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Offline Matthew

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  • Have you stopped to consider WHY they aren't doing this?

    Think: what good would it do? What harm could it do?

    Why make +Vigano's apostolate any more difficult, for example? Why associate him with certainly politically incorrect subjects, before lots of non-Trad Catholics hear him out? Why scandalize Conciliar Catholics (of all varieties: non-Catholic, liberal, and conservative) that the consecration he received from JP2 is being conditionally re-done?

    What purpose would it serve?

    At any rate, I personally trust the bishops involved and leave it to their own good judgment. It's not for me, a layman, to beat drums about the issue one way or another. It's certainly not the role of laymen to tell bishops what to do!

    That is true in EVERY case, even with regards to the most liberal Novus Ordo bishops. Yes, that might mean the Crisis will continue. But maybe it's MEANT to continue, ever think of that? It's not MY place or position to correct bishops, including the Bishop of Rome. Remember, St. Paul corrected St. Peter to the face "because he was to be blamed" -- but notice that St. Paul was an apostle as well? He wasn't some Joe sixpack who swept the Coliseum. Taking it upon ourselves to overthrow the natural order with the excuse of "solving the Crisis" shows a natural (rather than supernatural) outlook, as if little old Matthew is going to be a hero and solve the Crisis if I could just fraternally correct this Novus bishop. No, perhaps it was God's plan for the Crisis to continue? Hmmm? God certainly didn't expect us to step out of line and talk down to bishops.

    Fraternal correction requires that you be the same level, or above, the person being corrected. No one takes correction from an inferior. Might as well not bother! If the situation is TRULY that dire (no superior or equal is correcting him) then you really need to WRITE HIM OFF already. Leave him in God's hands. Pray for him. That's it.

    Lastly, in my opinion it's worse to grumble about someone online than it is to tell them right to their face "You're a _____ ______, you know that?" At least when you insult them (contumely) to their face, no one else hears it but the man you're angry at. No damage is done to his authority and reputation. But when you say many more words (even with less swearing) but you grumble to hundreds or thousands of people online -- that's a much worse offense, disrespect, and damage to a man's reputation.
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #1 on: January 05, 2024, 05:05:14 PM »
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  • If a novus ordo Catholic and a non-Catholic got married, had children, later both became traditional Catholics, realized that they actually were not validly married, and privately renewed their vows with a traditional priest, I can think of a host of reasons why they would not announce that to people.  It could cause grave scandal in their family and community.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #2 on: January 05, 2024, 05:17:07 PM »
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  • Well put.

    SSPV did the same thing by concealing the consecration of Bishop Kelly for a couple of years ... because Bishop Mendez didn't want it know while he was alive due to the blowback he'd receive.

    In Communist countries, not only were consecrations done secretly, but the Pope (Pius XI and then Pius XII) even ORDERED that they remain secret ... again, due to the repercussions of the Communists finding out about them.

    There's no inherent requirement to have consecrations public ... until the bishops begin to function in public.  How does +Vigano's consecration or lack thereof affect anyone here?  Has he ordained priests for the Resistance or SSPX that might be showing up soon as our local chapel ... or consecrated holy oils that might be used for Last Rites?  Until such a time as he does, it affects none of us, and it's just about either 1) curiosity or 2) some people finding yet other reasons to attack +Vigano (when the first half dozen have been debunked) or 3) the morale boost some might receive by seeing a high profile Conciliar Archbishop defect to the Resistance, and to Traditional Catholicism.

    Not to mention, I don't consider this "secret", since evidently Bishop Williamson, Bishop Faure, and Father Chazal have told individuals who asked them.  Unlike the clandestine ones in Communist countries, this is not under complete / absolute secrecy, because they have told people who have asked.  Where's the canonical requirement to post the consecration on Facebook?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #3 on: January 05, 2024, 05:26:54 PM »
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  • If a novus ordo Catholic and a non-Catholic got married, had children, later both became traditional Catholics, realized that they actually were not validly married, and privately renewed their vows with a traditional priest, I can think of a host of reasons why they would not announce that to people.  It could cause grave scandal in their family and community.

    Yes, and a lot of conditionals are in the same boat, where they're not generally done in public.  Let's say it was found out that someone's Baptism had positive doubt.  They'd usually confer the conditional in a private/informal setting and not announce it to the parish or put that in the bulletin.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #4 on: January 05, 2024, 06:13:50 PM »
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  • Now is NOT the time to remain silent about *religion*! Even conservative non Catholics are looking for someone, ANYONE to rally around. I strongly disagree, if Vigano is the real deal he should be shouting RIGHT NOW from the rooftops and put his trust in God to protect him while we aren’t YET being openly persecuted.

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #5 on: January 05, 2024, 06:43:47 PM »
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  • Either he comes out publicly, or we are squarely in the realm of pure human respect and human motives - which always results in big fat duds. 

    Vigano has plenty of testosterone. There's no reason whatsoever to hold this back.

    I smell back channels, and a "suggestion" to shush the flock.  

    What would St. John Chrysostom do? 

    C'mon, men.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #6 on: January 05, 2024, 07:43:22 PM »
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  • It seems to me that, while conditional sacraments are a big thing for us, people like Bp. Williamson and Abp. Vigano don't give it much importance.

    The impression that I have is that it is not a big issue for them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #7 on: January 05, 2024, 09:23:47 PM »
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  • It's a matter of prudence, the forgotten virtue among some here.  While the armchair warriors here are encouraging some kind of probably meaningless and merely symbolic bravado, what good would it do exactly other than so that some individuals here could "high five" one another?  "Yeah, take that, Modernists."

    Would it convert one person or would it be more likely to shut down those in "Trad, Inc." who might otherwise lend a more sympathetic ear to +Vigano?  Probably the latter ... if done abruptly.  +Vigano would quickly be demonized as having been conditionally consecrated by the "h0Ɩ0cαųst Denier" and also as having doubt about the great Saint Wojtyla the Great.

    It may seem advisable as a matter of prudence to time the public announcement in such a way that it might have the greatest positive (vs. negative) effect.  Very often, individuals are best drawn to the truth in small steps, gradually.  If you took a completely clueless individual and started spouting off about "There was no h0Ɩ0cαųst.  Jews control the world." this would be too abrupt and would shut them down immediately.  But if you introduce the truth, little by little, step by step, they could gradually get there.  "Governments lie to us all the time.  Look at how most of the media are owned by Jews.  See how the big banks are controlled by Jews.  See what damage they are doing to society via the banks and the media." ... step by step ... and they may eventually get to the h0Ɩ0h0αx and the fact that Jews run the world.  But not if you throw it at them in one big bang.

    I advise that some of you look up the virtue of prudence (the long-forgotten virtue, yet the queen of all the virtues).  You weigh the good and the bad that might come from any particular action you take when it comes to actions that are neither inherently good nor inherently bad (here, the wide public announcement of the consecration).


    Offline PAT317

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #8 on: January 05, 2024, 10:00:22 PM »
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  • It's a matter of prudence, the forgotten virtue among some here.  While the armchair warriors here are encouraging some kind of probably meaningless and merely symbolic bravado, what good would it do exactly other than so that some individuals here could "high five" one another?  "Yeah, take that, Modernists."

    Would it convert one person or would it be more likely to shut down those in "Trad, Inc." who might otherwise lend a more sympathetic ear to +Vigano?  Probably the latter ... if done abruptly. ...

    I advise that some of you look up the virtue of prudence (the long-forgotten virtue, yet the queen of all the virtues).  You weigh the good and the bad that might come from any particular action you take when it comes to actions that are neither inherently good nor inherently bad (here, the wide public announcement of the consecration).

    Well said. 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #9 on: January 06, 2024, 10:06:42 AM »
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  • It seems to me that, while conditional sacraments are a big thing for us, people like Bp. Williamson and Abp. Vigano don't give it much importance.

    The impression that I have is that it is not a big issue for them.
    Bishop Williamson said “a shadow of doubt” exists over bishop huonder, I could be wrong, but my best read of that is that he still thinks that he’s a valid bishop, he just isn’t sure.  I can see why, if that’s what he thinks, he would want to do a conditional consecration but only share on a “need to know” basis, he doesn’t want to scandalize people who don’t already have doubts 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #10 on: January 06, 2024, 10:08:13 AM »
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  • Now is NOT the time to remain silent about *religion*! Even conservative non Catholics are looking for someone, ANYONE to rally around. I strongly disagree, if Vigano is the real deal he should be shouting RIGHT NOW from the rooftops and put his trust in God to protect him while we aren’t YET being openly persecuted.
    Not trying to ad hom but I guess that’s maybe where the sede/non sede difference comes in, is the conciliar church some kind of gray area or is it 100 percent a different religion?  Obviously some Sedes and non Sedes “cross over” in that debate, but I can see why an R and R mindset wouldn’t want to scandalize people with weak faith where learning about the shadow of doubt could completely destroy their faith 


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #11 on: January 06, 2024, 10:19:06 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson said “a shadow of doubt” exists over bishop huonder, I could be wrong, but my best read of that is that he still thinks that he’s a valid bishop, he just isn’t sure.  I can see why, if that’s what he thinks, he would want to do a conditional consecration but only share on a “need to know” basis, he doesn’t want to scandalize people who don’t already have doubts
    I agree. When you think about it, how many BISHOPS have been conditionally consecrated? It's usually done for conditional ordinations, but this is the first I've heard of for a Bishop. This has huge implications that can easily be misconstrued and cause false perceptions.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #12 on: January 06, 2024, 10:57:50 AM »
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  • I agree. When you think about it, how many BISHOPS have been conditionally consecrated? It's usually done for conditional ordinations, but this is the first I've heard of for a Bishop. This has huge implications that can easily be misconstrued and cause false perceptions.

    Well, I for one think that the current Traditional bishops should offer to conditionally consecrate one another for unity.  We have a lot of division that's based almost entirely on having cast aspersions on the orders of other groups, even when they're otherwise theologically aligned.  Instead of just wagging fingers at the other groups for being invalid, why not just do what charity requires and offer them conditional consecration / ordinations.  If I truly believed that a Catholic group (e.g. CMRI) had doubtful / invalid orders, I would be concerned for the faithful, as opposed to almost reveling in the fact that they have allegedly doubtful orders and would offer them a conditional consecration.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #13 on: January 06, 2024, 11:00:08 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson said “a shadow of doubt” exists over bishop huonder, I could be wrong, but my best read of that is that he still thinks that he’s a valid bishop, he just isn’t sure.  I can see why, if that’s what he thinks, he would want to do a conditional consecration but only share on a “need to know” basis, he doesn’t want to scandalize people who don’t already have doubts

    Yes, I get the impression that Bishop Williamson and others only have relatively weak doubts about the validity of NO Orders, where it just barely rises above the level of negative doubt for them.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Why Vigano conditional consecration NOT being shouted from rooftops
    « Reply #14 on: January 06, 2024, 12:38:17 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson said “a shadow of doubt” exists over bishop huonder, I could be wrong, but my best read of that is that he still thinks that he’s a valid bishop, he just isn’t sure.  I can see why, if that’s what he thinks, he would want to do a conditional consecration but only share on a “need to know” basis, he doesn’t want to scandalize people who don’t already have doubts

    I have the same perception. And the SSPX is the same.

    The problem is that Moral Theology is "clear-cut". If there is positive doubt, then the sacraments are doubtful and receiving them is sinful.

    There is not a scale. There either is positive doubt or there is not.

    If Bp. Williamson agreed to conditionally consecrate Abp. Vigano, then it is because he believes that there is a positive doubt there. Otherwise, he would be commiting a sin. 

    This is my understanding anyway. I don't mean to accuse anybody. I just don't get this logic of "shadows". I have never read about "shadows" in Moral Theology.