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Author Topic: Why SSPX Cannot Defend Catholic Tradition - Bakery & Wine Cellar Consecrations  (Read 22318 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Kwasniewski was at CUA when we were there. He was a full-on JP2 conserva-nerd in those days. He never joined in distilled-and-fermented, late-night theology wars on the steps of Gibbons Hall.

He has come a long way in 25 years, and I don't believe that he has yet completed his metamorphosis. I'd cut the Kwas some slack. Louis Tofari is more the SSPX syncophant.

Sounds good, ElwinRansom.  It would be nice to see him depart here or there from the SSPX party line.  Perhaps at some point intellectual honesty would motivate him to do so.

Offline SeanJohnson

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Sounds good, ElwinRansom.  It would be nice to see him depart here or there from the SSPX party line.  Perhaps at some point intellectual honesty would motivate him to do so.

Like with his preference for the pre-1955 Holy Week?  Perhaps at some point, you will develop the intellectual honesty to notice this.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline Ladislaus

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Like with his preference for the pre-1955 Holy Week?  Perhaps at some point, you will develop the intellectual honesty to notice this.

Expressing a "preference" does not depart from the SSPX party line and has nothing to do with actual theology any more than Motarians who express their "preference" for the Tridentine Mass.  In fact, expressing it as a "preference" actually contains a latent theological position that's the opposite of the actual theological reasons for it.

I'll accept an exhortation to intellectual honesty from someone who doesn't constantly demonstrate his dishonesty, such as when he can't win an argument, he starts resorting to puerile taunts.

Offline SeanJohnson

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Start reading at "B. The Form:"









Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline SeanJohnson

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Expressing a "preference" does not depart from the SSPX party line and has nothing to do with actual theology any more than Motarians who express their "preference" for the Tridentine Mass.  In fact, expressing it as a "preference" actually contains a latent theological position that's the opposite of the actual theological reasons for it.

I'll accept an exhortation to intellectual honesty from someone who doesn't constantly demonstrate his dishonesty, such as when he can't win an argument, he starts resorting to puerile taunts.

Loudestmouth-

I concede.  The SSPX is all for the pre-1955, and that's why Kwas is promoting it.  

What a moron.

:facepalm:
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline Angelus

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Start reading at "B. The Form:"











Sean, why do you promote theological opinions by people most of us have never heard of? All of these authors you reference take a "minimalist" position. It is an "ecuмenical" position, meaning they want to find a "form" that comforts the Orthodox, the Greeks, etc. Surely Our Lord is "ecuмenical," they say. 

But what if St. Thomas Aquinas is correct. What if Pope Pius V's order, contained in every Roman Missal, is required of Roman Rite Catholics, under penalty of invalidity? What if the Roman Catholic Church is the only Church keeping the true Sacraments? Don't you want to ensure that you "take the safest course," the Tutiorist position regarding the Sacraments? Why take a chance and say fewer words in the consecratory form, when two of the greatest saints in Catholic history are adamant that "validity" of "the form of consecration of the wine" requires "mysterium fidei"?

Who's side are you on? Surely the Modernists agree with you.

Offline SeanJohnson

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Sean, why do you promote theological opinions by people most of us have never heard of? All of these authors you reference take a "minimalist" position. It is an "ecuмenical" position, meaning they want to find a "form" that comforts the Orthodox, the Greeks, etc. Surely Our Lord is "ecuмenical," they say.

But what if St. Thomas Aquinas is correct. What if Pope Pius V's order, contained in every Roman Missal, is required of Roman Rite Catholics, under penalty of invalidity? What if the Roman Catholic Church is the only Church keeping the true Sacraments? Don't you want to ensure that you "take the safest course," the Tutiorist position regarding the Sacraments? Why take a chance and say fewer words in the consecratory form, when two of the greatest saints in Catholic history are adamant that "validity" of "the form of consecration of the wine" requires "mysterium fidei"?

Who's side are you on? Surely the Modernists agree with you.

If you've never heard of Pohle, Cappello, or Tanqueray, I think that says quite a bit more about you than it does about me.

The very first thing it suggests is that you are not even fit to have this conversation, and what the rest of your mess/post suggests is that you struggle to keep distinct principles confined to their proper domain (e.g., now your're conflating tutiorism, which is pertinent to moral theology, and sacramental theology).

You'd be better off following along, than trying to fend off everyone whose trying to correct you.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline drew

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The bolded part is correct. The words of Canon 817/927 establish that it is possible for a priest to do the thing that is called "nefas," which means wicked, evil, forbidden. If the consecration was merely "invalid," the canon would have stated that.

Instead, the act is "wicked" because the consecration is valid and results in a mockery and abuse of the Eucharist. If the Eucharistic species wasn't actually confected, there would be no sacrilege. It would just be a simulation of the consecration. It would be irrelevant. And there would be no need for the Church to use such strong language warning about the wickedness of that act.

This question was addressed in my article. You apparently did not read it.

Quote
Can 927: It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the Eucharistic celebration.

You are reading something into the law that is not there. Simply because an act is "wicked, evil, forbidden" does not mean it is valid. If you curse God the act is "wicked, evil, forbidden" but produces no possible valid injury to God. It would be "wicked, evil, forbidden" for a layman to pretend to be a priest and absolve in the confessional but produces no valid absolution.

You again err when you say, "If the consecration was merely 'invalid,' the canon would have stated that." This is claiming that all invalidating laws declare they are invalidating in the law itself which it not true.


We know by divine and Catholic faith, that is by dogma, that the matter for the Eucharistic sacrifice is bread AND wine. Therefore, we know by divine and Catholic faith that to attempt to consecrate bread alone or wine alone is invalid because of a defect in matter "the sacrament is not accomplished."


Quote
Each sacrament is accomplished in three parts, that is, by things as the matter, by words as the form, and by the person of the minister conferring the sacrament with the intention of doing what the Church does. If one of these three should be lacking, the sacrament is not accomplished. Council of Florence

A
ll laws are hierarchical and no law binds in cases of necessity or impossibility excepting invalidating laws. This law specifically admits no exceptions whatsoever, not even in "extreme urgent necessity".

In a limited reply at this time, t
he intention of the minister is to do “what the Church DOES.” What the Church “DOES” is what Jesus Christ DID at the first Eucharistic Sacrifice at the Last Supper.  St. Thomas teaches that God is the formal and final cause of the sacraments and the priest is the human secondary instrumental cause. All causes of any material object whatsoever require the same ends! That is, if the formal cause is working toward a different end than the instrumental cause, the end will not be gained. I put that in bold so I would not have to repeat it. It was the nominalist Luther who denied secondary causality and thus the mediation of any human minister. The theology of bakery and wine cellar consecrations is just another inverted version where the causality of God is destroyed. This perversion thinks and teaches that God must conform His intention to the perverted intention of any priest who would attempt to consecrate only one part of the sacramental matter, or that is divorced from the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This is the theology of sorcery.

St. Thomas teaches that the blood and water that issued forth from the pierced side of the Crucified Jesus represents the sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist (ST IIIa q62a5). The Eucharist is caused by and from the Passion of Jesus Christ as is the grace of every sacrament. Without the Sacrificial cause, there is no Eucharistic True Presence.

Drew





Offline Angelus

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If you've never heard of Pohle, Cappello, or Tanqueray, I think that says quite a bit more about you than it does about me.

The very first thing it suggests is that you are not even fit to have this conversation, and what the rest of your mess/post suggests is that you struggle to keep distinct principles confined to their proper domain (e.g., now your're conflating tutiorism, which is pertinent to moral theology, and sacramental theology).

You'd be better off following along, than trying to fend off everyone whose trying to correct you.

Oh, Sean, there you go again. Why must you resort to ad hominem over and over again? Why not just admit that your position makes no sense for a traditional Catholic?

You are supporting a change that the Roman Missal itself (through De defectibus) has stated for over 400 years is an invalidating change to "the form" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. St. Thomas Aquinas explains why the change is invalidating.

Do you also claim that the change from "for many" to "for all" was also unimportant?

You offer opinions of "authorities" who are either clearly Modernist or suspiciously agree with the Modernist program implemented in the Novus Ordo missal. These opinions contradict the greatest Doctor of the Church and the Saint Pope who promulgated the Tridentine Missal. But the best you can come back with is to claim that I'm "not even fit to have this conversation."

I'm not the one making the primary argument Sean. St. Thomas and St. Pius are. You are arguing against them, not me. Do you not see that?


Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
Like with his preference for the pre-1955 Holy Week?
Who cares about a preference?  :laugh1:  Did he make a factual, theological argument?  Preferences are for women.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
You offer opinions of "authorities" who are either clearly Modernist or suspiciously agree with the Modernist program implemented in the Novus Ordo missal. These opinions contradict the greatest Doctor of the Church and the Saint Pope who promulgated the Tridentine Missal. But the best you can come back with is to claim that I'm "not even fit to have this conversation."
It's because Sean follows people and not facts.  He has too friendly of a relationship with +W (whose view on the new mass is flawed), thus Sean defends +W's view blindly.  Sean consistently promotes/defends views of those he follows, without examining the reasons thereof.  He is biased on many topics.


Offline SeanJohnson

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Oh, Sean, there you go again. Why must you resort to ad hominem over and over again? Why not just admit that your position makes no sense for a traditional Catholic?

Projection: You just got done dismissing Pohle because he knew a Jєωιѕн botanist.

As for the position, it is the one embraced by the great majority of traditional theologians.


You are supporting a change that the Roman Missal itself (through De defectibus) has stated for over 400 years is an invalidating change to "the form" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. St. Thomas Aquinas explains why the change is invalidating.

St. Thomas is rejected by themajority of theologians on this point (including many Thomists).  This has been pointed out to you.

Do you also claim that the change from "for many" to "for all" was also unimportant?

 Attempting to change the subject.

You offer opinions of "authorities" who are either clearly Modernist or suspiciously agree with the Modernist program implemented in the Novus Ordo missal. These opinions contradict the greatest Doctor of the Church and the Saint Pope who promulgated the Tridentine Missal. But the best you can come back with is to claim that I'm "not even fit to have this conversation."

 Were St. Ambrose and St. Bonaventure among these modernists too?  Pohle wrote his manual during the time of Pope St. Pius X, and it was used in many of the Anglo countries (including by Fr. Feeney), yet he was never censured for what you imagine was modernism.  Could it be that you don't know what yo uare talking about?

I'm not the one making the primary argument Sean. St. Thomas and St. Pius are. You are arguing against them, not me. Do you not see that?

And they are in the great minority of theologians on this point.  Don't you get that?

Responses in red above.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline SeanJohnson

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Who cares about a preference?  :laugh1:  Did he make a factual, theological argument?  Preferences are for women.

Typical blathering.  Loudestmouth was contending that Kwas wa a SSPX shill, yet Kwas holds the opposite liturgical position from the SSPX regarding Holy Week.  Then here you come with 5th grade responses.:facepalm:
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline SeanJohnson

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It's because Sean follows people and not facts.  He has too friendly of a relationship with +W (whose view on the new mass is flawed), thus Sean defends +W's view blindly.  Sean consistently promotes/defends views of those he follows, without examining the reasons thereof.  He is biased on many topics.

...and Sean likes fried eggs, and glazed ham.  And he holds his breath for 79 seconds.  And some other irrrelevant stuff?

...and Sean likes +Williamson, and that's why fire trucks are red.

:facepalm::jester:
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
Typical blathering.  Loudestmouth was contending that Kwas wa a SSPX shill, yet Kwas holds the opposite liturgical position from the SSPX regarding Holy Week.  Then here you come with 5th grade responses.:facepalm: title=facepalm
:laugh1:  So you are engaging in the false dichotomy of sspx vs non-sspx.  In fact, the issue of the 55 Holy Week is independent of both issues.  Tradition is much larger than the sspx.