Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Why SSPX Cannot Defend Catholic Tradition - Bakery & Wine Cellar Consecrations  (Read 22308 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1255
  • Reputation: +567/-105
  • Gender: Male
Loved the first half of your post, but I'm not understanding why the juxtoposition of the mysterium fidei is sacrilegeous.

It is not part of the essential form, so why does placing it after the consecration make it sacrilegeous?

Hi Sean. The words "mysterium fidei" are, without a doubt, required for "the form" of consecration of the wine. Please don't take my word for it. I am nobody. Take the words of Pope St. Pius V in the Roman Missal. That missal was promulgated with these words from the Papal Bull Quo Primum:

-------
Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force...
--------

Here is what is said in De defectibus, the instructions included in the Roman Missal:

------------
V - Defects of the form

20. Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating. Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are:
    HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, and HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI: MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament. If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid, but he would be committing a grave sin.
-------------

Now, someone might say that the words "mysterium fidei" does not change "the meaning of the words." But St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees with that (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q78.A3) when he says:

------------
I answer that, There is a twofold opinion regarding this form. Some have maintained that the words "This is the chalice of My blood" alone belong to the substance of this form, but not those words which follow. Now this seems incorrect, because the words which follow them are determinations of the predicate, that is, of Christ’s blood. Consequently they belong to the integrity of the expression.

And on this account others say more accurately that all the words which follow are of the substance of the form down to the words, "As often as ye shall do this," which belong to the use of this sacrament, and consequently do not belong to the substance of the form. Hence it is that the priest pronounces all these words, under the same rite and manner, namely, holding the chalice in his hands. Moreover, in Luke 22:20, the words that follow are interposed with the preceding words: This is the chalice, the new testament in My blood.

Consequently it must be said that all the aforesaid words belong to the substance of the form; but that by the first words, "This is the chalice of My blood," the change of the wine into blood is denoted, as explained above (A. 2) in the form for the consecration of the bread; but by the words which come after is shown the power of the blood shed in the Passion, which power works in this sacrament, and is ordained for three purposes. First and principally for securing our eternal heritage, according to Heb. 10:19: Having confidence in the entering into the holies by the blood of Christ; and in order to denote this, we say, "of the New and Eternal Testament." Second, for justifying by grace, which is by faith according to Rom. 3:25, 26: Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood . . . that He Himself may be just, and the justifier of him who is of the faith of Jesus Christ: and on this account we add, "The Mystery of Faith." Third, for removing sins which are the impediments to both of these things, according to Heb. 9:14: The blood of Christ . . . shall cleanse our conscience from dead works, that is, from sins; and on this account, we say, "which shall be shed for you and for many unto the forgiveness of sins."
----------

Therefore, St. Thomas assigns the words "mysterium fidei" to "the substance of the form," not to its accidents. This means the words that make up "the form" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist would not continue to be "the form" if the words "mysterium fidei" were removed. Those words would be something other than "the form" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Again, this is St. Thomas Aquinas, not me.

One might object that "the Church" can change things regarding the Sacraments, and later Popes were in their authority to remove the words "mysterium fidei" from "the form" of the Sacrament. But Pope Pius XII said otherwise in Sacramentum Ordinis when he said:

---------
"...the Church has no authority over the substance of the Sacraments, that is to say, in that which, as witnesses of the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord himself determined to be kept in the sacramental sign"
---------

And as Aquinas says, t is not by ecclessiastical law that "mysterium fidei" is included in "the form." He says those words were from Our Lord himself (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q78.A3.Rep9):

--------
Reply Obj. 9: The Evangelists did not intend to hand down the forms of the sacraments, which in the primitive Church had to be kept concealed, as Dionysius observes at the close of his book on the ecclesiastical hierarchy; their object was to write the story of Christ. Nevertheless nearly all these words can be culled from various passages of the Scriptures. Because the words, This is the chalice, are found in Luke 22:20, and 1 Cor. 11:25, while Matthew says in chapter 26:28: "This is My blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins." The words added, namely, "eternal" and "mystery of faith," were handed down to the Church by the apostles, who received them from our Lord, according to 1 Cor. 11:23: "I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you."
--------

Finally, even if one still thinks that Paul VI could have changed "the substance of the form" (which he could not), he did not, in fact, intentionally remove the words "mysterium fidei" from "the form." In Missale Romanum, he simply said that those words were being moved from the middle of "the form" to the end of "the form."

The sacrilege was accomplished in the rubrics of the Novus Ordo Missal and in the GIRM by other Vatican officials. It is in the rubrics and in the GIRM that the priest is told that the "words of consecration" end BEFORE the words "mysterium fidei" are pronounced, and that being so, the rubrics require him to genuflect to an unconsecrated chalice. By this genuflection, the priest externally establishes his INTENTION to end the "words of consecration." He clearly shows that, by genuflecting and therefore adoring the chalice, that he believes that the "consecration of the wine" has been completed without any need to say the words "mysterium fidei."

So, I hope this evidence convinces you of the following:

1. The words "mysterium fidei" are required by Pope Pius V's Apostolic authority in promulgating the Roman missal.
2. Those words are theologically designated to be "the substance of the form" of the Sacrament by St. Thomas Aquinas.
3. That the "substance of the Sacraments" cannot be changed by the Church because they derive from Our Lord by witness of the Apostles, as taught by Pope Pius XII and Trent.
4. That the change that was officially promulgated by Paul VI to move the words "mysterium fidei" did not specify that those words would no longer be considered part of "the form." That false assumption was put into the GIRM and into the Novus Ordo rubrics. These bad instructions confused the priests who were taught to say the Novus Ordo with the belief that the words of consecration were finished before saying "mysterium fidei," thereby causing them to INTEND to consecrate the Eucharist using an invalid form.




Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
Hi Sean. The words "mysterium fidei" are, without a doubt, required for "the form" of consecration of the wine. Please don't take my word for it. I am nobody. Take the words of Pope St. Pius V in the Roman Missal. That missal was promulgated with these words from the Papal Bull Quo Primum:

-------
Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force...
--------

Here is what is said in De defectibus, the instructions included in the Roman Missal:

------------
V - Defects of the form

20. Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating. Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are:
    HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, and HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI: MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament. If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid, but he would be committing a grave sin.
-------------

Now, someone might say that the words "mysterium fidei" does not change "the meaning of the words." But St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees with that (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q78.A3) when he says:

------------
I answer that, There is a twofold opinion regarding this form. Some have maintained that the words "This is the chalice of My blood" alone belong to the substance of this form, but not those words which follow. Now this seems incorrect, because the words which follow them are determinations of the predicate, that is, of Christ’s blood. Consequently they belong to the integrity of the expression.

And on this account others say more accurately that all the words which follow are of the substance of the form down to the words, "As often as ye shall do this," which belong to the use of this sacrament, and consequently do not belong to the substance of the form. Hence it is that the priest pronounces all these words, under the same rite and manner, namely, holding the chalice in his hands. Moreover, in Luke 22:20, the words that follow are interposed with the preceding words: This is the chalice, the new testament in My blood.

Consequently it must be said that all the aforesaid words belong to the substance of the form; but that by the first words, "This is the chalice of My blood," the change of the wine into blood is denoted, as explained above (A. 2) in the form for the consecration of the bread; but by the words which come after is shown the power of the blood shed in the Passion, which power works in this sacrament, and is ordained for three purposes. First and principally for securing our eternal heritage, according to Heb. 10:19: Having confidence in the entering into the holies by the blood of Christ; and in order to denote this, we say, "of the New and Eternal Testament." Second, for justifying by grace, which is by faith according to Rom. 3:25, 26: Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood . . . that He Himself may be just, and the justifier of him who is of the faith of Jesus Christ: and on this account we add, "The Mystery of Faith." Third, for removing sins which are the impediments to both of these things, according to Heb. 9:14: The blood of Christ . . . shall cleanse our conscience from dead works, that is, from sins; and on this account, we say, "which shall be shed for you and for many unto the forgiveness of sins."
----------

Therefore, St. Thomas assigns the words "mysterium fidei" to "the substance of the form," not to its accidents. This means the words that make up "the form" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist would not continue to be "the form" if the words "mysterium fidei" were removed. Those words would be something other than "the form" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Again, this is St. Thomas Aquinas, not me.

One might object that "the Church" can change things regarding the Sacraments, and later Popes were in their authority to remove the words "mysterium fidei" from "the form" of the Sacrament. But Pope Pius XII said otherwise in Sacramentum Ordinis when he said:

---------
"...the Church has no authority over the substance of the Sacraments, that is to say, in that which, as witnesses of the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord himself determined to be kept in the sacramental sign"
---------

And as Aquinas says, t is not by ecclessiastical law that "mysterium fidei" is included in "the form." He says those words were from Our Lord himself (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q78.A3.Rep9):

--------
Reply Obj. 9: The Evangelists did not intend to hand down the forms of the sacraments, which in the primitive Church had to be kept concealed, as Dionysius observes at the close of his book on the ecclesiastical hierarchy; their object was to write the story of Christ. Nevertheless nearly all these words can be culled from various passages of the Scriptures. Because the words, This is the chalice, are found in Luke 22:20, and 1 Cor. 11:25, while Matthew says in chapter 26:28: "This is My blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins." The words added, namely, "eternal" and "mystery of faith," were handed down to the Church by the apostles, who received them from our Lord, according to 1 Cor. 11:23: "I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you."
--------

Finally, even if one still thinks that Paul VI could have changed "the substance of the form" (which he could not), he did not, in fact, intentionally remove the words "mysterium fidei" from "the form." In Missale Romanum, he simply said that those words were being moved from the middle of "the form" to the end of "the form."

The sacrilege was accomplished in the rubrics of the Novus Ordo Missal and in the GIRM by other Vatican officials. It is in the rubrics and in the GIRM that the priest is told that the "words of consecration" end BEFORE the words "mysterium fidei" are pronounced, and that being so, the rubrics require him to genuflect to an unconsecrated chalice. By this genuflection, the priest externally establishes his INTENTION to end the "words of consecration." He clearly shows that, by genuflecting and therefore adoring the chalice, that he believes that the "consecration of the wine" has been completed without any need to say the words "mysterium fidei."

So, I hope this evidence convinces you of the following:

1. The words "mysterium fidei" are required by Pope Pius V's Apostolic authority in promulgating the Roman missal.
2. Those words are theologically designated to be "the substance of the form" of the Sacrament by St. Thomas Aquinas.
3. That the "substance of the Sacraments" cannot be changed by the Church because they derive from Our Lord by witness of the Apostles, as taught by Pope Pius XII and Trent.
4. That the change that was officially promulgated by Paul VI to move the words "mysterium fidei" did not specify that those words would no longer be considered part of "the form." That false assumption was put into the GIRM and into the Novus Ordo rubrics. These bad instructions confused the priests who were taught to say the Novus Ordo with the belief that the words of consecration were finished before saying "mysterium fidei," thereby causing them to INTEND to consecrate the Eucharist using an invalid form.

The mysterium fidei is absent in the Ukrainian and Mozarabic rites (and probably others), and consequently, it cannot be essential for validity.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
Monday, June 26, 2023

PETER KWASNIEWSKI



Ihave argued (especially in my book ) that the Novus Ordo is a striking and scandalous departure from our liturgical tradition, and deserves finally to be retired and replaced with the Roman Rite—the only Roman Rite there is. Such a thesis is hardly unfamiliar to readers of this blog.

However, critics of the Novus Ordo sometimes make mistaken critiques, insufficiently grounded in a correct grasp of the principles of theology. For example, in the free market of unregulated traditionalist literature, one will sometimes find people claiming that the removal of the words “mysterium fidei” from the formula of the consecration of the wine invalidates the form. While the removal of this phrase is certainly objectionable, it does not in any way invalidate the form.

The reason is specified by St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa theologiae III, question 60, article 8:

Quote
Since in the sacraments, the words produce an effect according to the sense which they convey … we must see whether the change of words destroys the essential sense of the words: because then the sacrament is clearly rendered invalid. Now it is clear, if any substantial part of the sacramental form be suppressed, that the essential sense of the words is destroyed; and consequently the sacrament is invalid. Wherefore Didymus says (De Spir. Sanct. ii): “If anyone attempt to baptize in such a way as to omit one of the aforesaid names,” i.e. of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, “his baptism will be invalid.” But if that which is omitted be not a substantial part of the form, such an omission does not destroy the essential sense of the words, nor consequently the validity of the sacrament. Thus in the form of the Eucharist—“For this is My Body,” the omission of the word “for” does not destroy the essential sense of the words, nor consequently cause the sacrament to be invalid; although perhaps he who makes the omission may sin from negligence or contempt.
In the case of the chalice, the words that are necessary for accomplishing transubstantiation are: “This is the chalice of my Blood.” If these words are said by a validly ordained priest with the intention of doing what the Church does, then consecration will happen, since there is nothing ambiguous about the formula whatsoever—there is no doubt as to what is being said, namely, that the chalice is filled with the Blood of Our Lord. But if a minister left it at that and did not continue with the rest of the words according to the rite established by the church, he would then sin against the virtue of religion by failing to offer due worship. Such an incomplete statement, as it is contrary to the given rite, would be illicit; but it would not lead to invalidity, for the reasons given by the Angelic Doctor.

The fact that many authors refer to the entire traditional formula as the form of the sacrament cannot be taken as proof against the foregoing argument, since even Aquinas makes a distinction between the correct form and an incorrect, but not invalid form. If we do not take this (frankly common-sense) view, we will quickly run into trouble when trying to explain how the Eastern rites accomplish transubstantiation, since not a single one of those rites has “mysterium fidei” in the formula for the chalice. (Incidentally, this is also the reason it is doubtful that that phrase originated with the Lord, although it is possible that it originated with one of the Apostles, e.g., St. Peter in Rome, which would explain why it is found only in the Roman rite and the uses that stem from it or belong to its sphere of influence.)

On an ecclesiological and canonical level, we must also say that the supreme authority in the Church has the right to specify/clarify what is and is not the form, or, at least, what is adequate for accomplishing a given sacrament. Canon law has always granted this point, and there is not a single theologian who disputes it. Although we can and should lament the harm done to the Order of Mass by Paul VI, we cannot accuse him of promulgating an invalid sacrament or sacramental form.

In conclusion, I agree there is a mutilation in the repurposing of the phrase mysterium fidei, as I have argued at length. Here, I am simply saying that it does not undermine the efficacy of the statement found in the new missal, because this statement contains the essence of the form—namely, that this [1] is the blood of Christ. That, all by itself, is sufficient, all the other usual conditions being met (correct matter, minister, and intention). As Pius XII teaches in his encyclical Mediator Dei, the sacrifice consists in the separate consecration of bread and wine; and again, St. Thomas is clear that, however illicit it is to omit part of the form, nevertheless as long as the notion of a conversion of bread/wine to body/blood is signified, the words will be efficacious.

For more reflections along these lines, see my article “The Four Qualities of Liturgy: Validity, Licitness, Fittingness, and Authenticity.”

Visit Dr. Kwasniewski's Substack "Tradition & Sanity."

[Note 1] (Added subsequent to initial publication) St. Thomas takes up a particular objection to the words of Our Lord at the Last Supper (Commentary on Matthew, Chapter 26, verse 26). He is trying to identify the exact sense of the pronoun "this" in the phrases "this is my Body" and "this is my Blood". He points out the various ways one might interpret the significance of "this" and he positively rules out that the "this" means "this bread" or "this wine," because, if that is what is signified, it would result in a contradiction: "This [bread] is my Body," or "This [wine] is my Blood." So, after some grammatical analysis, St. Thomas concludes that the pronoun "this" signifies "whatever stands under these accidents." The statement "This is my body" is therefore not false, since its meaning is: "that which stands under these accidents is my Body."


https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2023/06/why-omission-of-mysterium-fidei-does.html 
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12611
  • Reputation: +8031/-2491
  • Gender: Male
The Council of Florence came after St Thomas and specifically set the conditions (in the Latin Church) for the validity of the consecration formula, did it not?

Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1255
  • Reputation: +567/-105
  • Gender: Male
Monday, June 26, 2023

PETER KWASNIEWSKI



Ihave argued (especially in my book ) that the Novus Ordo is a striking and scandalous departure from our liturgical tradition, and deserves finally to be retired and replaced with the Roman Rite—the only Roman Rite there is. Such a thesis is hardly unfamiliar to readers of this blog.

However, critics of the Novus Ordo sometimes make mistaken critiques, insufficiently grounded in a correct grasp of the principles of theology. For example, in the free market of unregulated traditionalist literature, one will sometimes find people claiming that the removal of the words “mysterium fidei” from the formula of the consecration of the wine invalidates the form. While the removal of this phrase is certainly objectionable, it does not in any way invalidate the form.

The reason is specified by St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa theologiae III, question 60, article 8:
In the case of the chalice, the words that are necessary for accomplishing transubstantiation are: “This is the chalice of my Blood.” If these words are said by a validly ordained priest with the intention of doing what the Church does, then consecration will happen, since there is nothing ambiguous about the formula whatsoever—there is no doubt as to what is being said, namely, that the chalice is filled with the Blood of Our Lord. But if a minister left it at that and did not continue with the rest of the words according to the rite established by the church, he would then sin against the virtue of religion by failing to offer due worship. Such an incomplete statement, as it is contrary to the given rite, would be illicit; but it would not lead to invalidity, for the reasons given by the Angelic Doctor.

The fact that many authors refer to the entire traditional formula as the form of the sacrament cannot be taken as proof against the foregoing argument, since even Aquinas makes a distinction between the correct form and an incorrect, but not invalid form. If we do not take this (frankly common-sense) view, we will quickly run into trouble when trying to explain how the Eastern rites accomplish transubstantiation, since not a single one of those rites has “mysterium fidei” in the formula for the chalice. (Incidentally, this is also the reason it is doubtful that that phrase originated with the Lord, although it is possible that it originated with one of the Apostles, e.g., St. Peter in Rome, which would explain why it is found only in the Roman rite and the uses that stem from it or belong to its sphere of influence.)

On an ecclesiological and canonical level, we must also say that the supreme authority in the Church has the right to specify/clarify what is and is not the form, or, at least, what is adequate for accomplishing a given sacrament. Canon law has always granted this point, and there is not a single theologian who disputes it. Although we can and should lament the harm done to the Order of Mass by Paul VI, we cannot accuse him of promulgating an invalid sacrament or sacramental form.

In conclusion, I agree there is a mutilation in the repurposing of the phrase mysterium fidei, as I have argued at length. Here, I am simply saying that it does not undermine the efficacy of the statement found in the new missal, because this statement contains the essence of the form—namely, that this [1] is the blood of Christ. That, all by itself, is sufficient, all the other usual conditions being met (correct matter, minister, and intention). As Pius XII teaches in his encyclical Mediator Dei, the sacrifice consists in the separate consecration of bread and wine; and again, St. Thomas is clear that, however illicit it is to omit part of the form, nevertheless as long as the notion of a conversion of bread/wine to body/blood is signified, the words will be efficacious.

For more reflections along these lines, see my article “The Four Qualities of Liturgy: Validity, Licitness, Fittingness, and Authenticity.”

Visit Dr. Kwasniewski's Substack "Tradition & Sanity."

[Note 1] (Added subsequent to initial publication) St. Thomas takes up a particular objection to the words of Our Lord at the Last Supper (Commentary on Matthew, Chapter 26, verse 26). He is trying to identify the exact sense of the pronoun "this" in the phrases "this is my Body" and "this is my Blood". He points out the various ways one might interpret the significance of "this" and he positively rules out that the "this" means "this bread" or "this wine," because, if that is what is signified, it would result in a contradiction: "This [bread] is my Body," or "This [wine] is my Blood." So, after some grammatical analysis, St. Thomas concludes that the pronoun "this" signifies "whatever stands under these accidents." The statement "This is my body" is therefore not false, since its meaning is: "that which stands under these accidents is my Body."


https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2023/06/why-omission-of-mysterium-fidei-does.html

Sean, please read Kwasniewski's argument carefully.

He uses St. Thomas Aquinas as his authority. Here is what Kwasniewski says,

----------
...one will sometimes find people claiming that the removal of the words “mysterium fidei” from the formula of the consecration of the wine invalidates the form. While the removal of this phrase is certainly objectionable, it does not in any way invalidate the form.

The reason is specified by St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa theologiae III, question 60, article 8:

In the case of the chalice, the words that are necessary for accomplishing transubstantiation are: “This is the chalice of my Blood.” If these words are said by a validly ordained priest with the intention of doing what the Church does, then consecration will happen, since there is nothing ambiguous about the formula whatsoever—there is no doubt as to what is being said, namely, that the chalice is filled with the Blood of Our Lord. But if a minister left it at that and did not continue with the rest of the words according to the rite established by the church, he would then sin against the virtue of religion by failing to offer due worship. Such an incomplete statement, as it is contrary to the given rite, would be illicit; but it would not lead to invalidity, for the reasons given by the Angelic Doctor.

----------

This supposed theological expert, Dr. Kwasniewski, cites III.60.8 from the Summa, which doesn't even address the consecration of the wine. Read it for yourself. I provided you with the specific Article (III.78.3) that discusses "the proper form of consecration of the wine." The words of III.78.3 directly contradicts what Kwasniewski says above.

Kwasniewski claims that St.Thomas says exactly the opposite of what St. Thomas actually says. Here are the words again of St. Thomas from III.78.3:

--------
I answer that, There is a twofold opinion regarding this form. Some have maintained that the words "This is the chalice of My blood" alone belong to the substance of this form, but not those words which follow. Now this seems incorrect, because the words which follow them are determinations of the predicate, that is, of Christ’s blood. consequently they belong to the integrity of the expression.

And on this account others say more accurately that all the words which follow are of the substance of the form down to the words, "As often as ye shall do this," which belong to the use of this sacrament, and consequently do not belong to the substance of the form. Hence it is that the priest pronounces all these words, under the same rite and manner, namely, holding the chalice in his hands. Moreover, in Luke 22:20, the words that follow are interposed with the preceding words: "This is the chalice, the new testament in My blood."

Consequently it must be said that all the aforesaid words belong to the substance of the form; but that by the first words, "This is the chalice of My blood," the change of the wine into blood is denoted, as explained above (A. 2) in the form for the consecration of the bread; but by the words which come after is shown the power of the blood shed in the Passion, which power works in this sacrament, and is ordained for three purposes. First and principally for securing our eternal heritage, according to Heb. 10:19: "Having confidence in the entering into the holies by the blood of Christ;" and in order to denote this, we say, "of the New and Eternal Testament." Second, for justifying by grace, which is by faith according to Rom. 3:25, 26: "Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood . . . that He Himself may be just, and the justifier of him who is of the faith of Jesus Christ": and on this account we add, "The Mystery of Faith." Third, for removing sins which are the impediments to both of these things, according to Heb. 9:14: "The blood of Christ . . . shall cleanse our conscience from dead works," that is, from sins; and on this account, we say, "which shall be shed for you and for many unto the forgiveness of sins."

---------

St. Thomas is directly contradicting Kwasniewski. Kwasniewski is one of those who say "This is the chalice of my blood" alone belongs to the substance of the form. St. Thomas says that is incorrect. But the "expert" Kwasniewski interprets St. Thomas as contradicting himself. There are other things that he is wrong about, but I will leave it at that for now.

Please tell me you see this.


Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1255
  • Reputation: +567/-105
  • Gender: Male
The mysterium fidei is absent in the Ukrainian and Mozarabic rites (and probably others), and consequently, it cannot be essential for validity.

Sean, the Roman Missal is not a Ukrainian or Mozarabic rite. It is in the Roman Rite. The infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, regarding the Roman Rite, is that the words "mysterium fidei" are required for "the substance of the form." I have provided evidence from Quo Primum and De defectibus.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"In reality, that part alone is to be regarded as the proper sacrificial act which is such by Christ's own institution. Now the Lord's words are: "This is my Body; this is my Blood."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
See Pohle-Preuss, beginning at the top of p.209-210:

Only "this is my body/this is my blood" are necessary for validity.

1) It addresses/rejects your Aquinas quote, noting it is not the common teaching, and is rejected by later Thomists;

2) It rejects your subsequent claim based on that quote, (again, the less common opinion, rejected by later Thomists) that the mysterium fidei is essential, by making the same observation as me (i.e., that the additional words are not contained in the Greek liturgy, and therefore cannot be essential).

https://archive.org/details/thesacraments02pohluoft/page/n219/mode/2up
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1255
  • Reputation: +567/-105
  • Gender: Male
See Pohle-Preuss, beginning at the top of p.209-210:

Only "this is my body/this is my blood" are necessary for validity.

1) It addresses/rejects your Aquinas quote, noting it is not the common teaching, and is rejected by later Thomists;

2) It rejects your subsequent claim based on that quote, (again, the less common opinion, rejected by later Thomists) that the mysterium fidei is essential, by making the same observation as me (i.e., that the additional words are not contained in the Greek liturgy, and therefore cannot be essential).

https://archive.org/details/thesacraments02pohluoft/page/n219/mode/2up

One one side, we have St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope St. Pius V.

On the other, we have Professor Joseph Pohle, S.J., a theology professor from Germany who taught at Catholic University of America.

A little background on Joseph Pohle:

Handsome man...er, I mean priest? Love that collar, eh?



Professor; b. Niederspay, Germany, March 19, 1852;d. Breslau, Germany, Feb. 21, 1922. After completing his studies at Trier, Germany, he attended the German College in Rome, as well as the Gregorianum. He received his Ph.D. in philosophy in 1874, his S.T.D. in 1879. He was ordained in 1878.

When prevented from accepting an official appointment in Germany by the restrictive laws of the Kulturkampf, he studied at Würzburg, Germany (187981), and was influenced by the noted botanist, Julius von Sachs.

So who is this Julius von Sachs character? Turns out he a very well-known Jєωιѕн botanist. What was Sachs known for in his field? He was known for incorporating DARWINISM into botany. Check this out:

"Sachs established the physiology of green organisms as an integral branch of botany and incorporated a Darwinian perspective into plant biology. Here we highlight key insights, with particular emphasis on Sachs' detailed discussion of sɛҳuąƖ reproduction at the cellular level and his endorsement of Darwinian evolution."

So Joseph Pohle is known as being influenced by a Jєωιѕн botanist who spread Darwinism.

But you might say...maybe Pohle was not really sympathetic to Darwinism himself. You would be wrong to think that. Read this article (I've also attached the article to this post):

"Father Joseph Pohle, professor of philosophy at Catholic University of America, however, considered Darwinism a new problem for theologians, noted the widespread refutation of Darwin, mentioned the sympathetic view of Dr. C. Guttler, commended the conciliatory writings of President James McCosh of Princeton, and decided that anything but Godless evolution, even natural selection, was capable of theistic acceptance." (p. 175-176)

Who is this Joseph Pohle? Could he be a modernist Jesuit, influenced by a famous Jєωιѕн Darwinist. Let's see, what does Darwinism have in common with theological Modernism? Could those ways of thinking be connected in some way? We must be very careful who we use as our AUTHORITIES on Sacramental Theology.

I think I'll trust Saint and Doctor Thomas and a Saint Pope making an infallible magisterial determination, not to mention almost 1500 years of the custom laid down by the Roman Canon.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
De Sacramentis (1932), Fr. Felix M. Cappello, S.J., professor of the Gregorian Pontifical Institute:
Quote
“The form for the consecration of the wine is this: Hic est enim calix Sanguinis Mei, novi et aeterni testamenti, mysterium fidei, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. The words: Hic est (enim) calix Sanguinis Mei, are certainly essential.
“Certain authors agree that the other words: novi et aeterni testamenti,etc., also pertain to the essential form. St. Thomas himself seems to follow this opinion, although some theologians and other authors think that the Angelic Doctor felt quite otherwise. Whatever is thought of the opinion of the Sacred Doctor and of other theologians, the opposite view is the common opinion and is thus morally certain. In practice, he would certainly sin gravely who would omit these words, and if he had said the first words only, he ought to repeat the entire form conditionally.”

Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 47085
  • Reputation: +27913/-5205
  • Gender: Male
Dr. Kwak is the latest pro SSPX shill that begins with the SSPX position (begging the question) and then backfills the "reasons" for it.


Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
Dr. Kwak is the latest pro SSPX shill that begins with the SSPX position (begging the question) and then backfills the "reasons" for it.

Actually, he supports the return to the pre-1955 Holy Week.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline ElwinRansom1970

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1071
  • Reputation: +817/-157
  • Gender: Male
  • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
Sean, the Roman Missal is not a Ukrainian or Mozarabic rite. It is in the Roman Rite. The infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, regarding the Roman Rite, is that the words "mysterium fidei" are required for "the substance of the form." I have provided evidence from Quo Primum and De defectibus.
Nope. Neither infallible nor dogmatic. A teaching must pertain to the universal Church to be dogmatic, and infallible does not mean irreformable (which pertains properly to dogmas).
"I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3163
  • Gender: Male
Recalling Our Lord never said mysterium fidei:

“And before the words of Christ, the chalice is full of wine and water; when the words of Christ have been added, then blood is effected, which redeemed the people.” 
(Ambrose, The Sacraments, 4.23; trans. Roy J. Deferrari, Fathers of the Church vol. 44, p 305).
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline ElwinRansom1970

  • Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 1071
  • Reputation: +817/-157
  • Gender: Male
  • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
Dr. Kwak is the latest pro SSPX shill that begins with the SSPX position (begging the question) and then backfills the "reasons" for it.
Kwasniewski was at CUA when we were there. He was a full-on JP2 conserva-nerd in those days. He never joined in distilled-and-fermented, late-night theology wars on the steps of Gibbons Hall.

He has come a long way in 25 years, and I don't believe that he has yet completed his metamorphosis. I'd cut the Kwas some slack. Louis Tofari is more the SSPX syncophant.
"I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
Nicolás Gómez Dávila