Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?  (Read 8282 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Twice dyed

  • Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 473
  • Reputation: +198/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • Violet, purple, and scarlet twice dyed. EX: 35, 6.
Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2025, 09:49:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nothing " implemented"..?

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/headline-news-around-the-world/item/3807-sspx-and-the-novus-ordo-a-new-spirit-of-cooperation

    The article says this wedding was Feb 10, 2018.
    Neo Sspx in Canada still use " Planto Prrotect" for their WOKE agenda...ie. boys ok in female washrooms blah blah blah  ,gender ID,
    So if you don't have a problem with that, then you are not awake.
    Pray+
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline ThatBritPapist

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 164
    • Reputation: +101/-23
    • Gender: Male
    • I hate the Anti-Christ.
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #16 on: March 06, 2025, 10:32:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think OP's questions are in good faith-- for those who lived "in the Resistance" as it was happening, the events probably seem closer, but it's been more than ten years and there are a lot of people who are analyzing the events after the fact, as part of traditionalist history.

    While it is true that the SSPX did not reach an open and formal agreement with modernist Rome, it is equally true that the SSPX has slid leftward, and continues to slide leftward, since ~2012 (I agree with Britpapist that this leftward slide actually dates to ABL's death-- but it's accelerated over the last 10-15 years).  The Resistance as originally formulated was motivated by resistance to and rejection of any deal, but the spirit of it was also opposed to increased liberalization of the SSPX whether or not a deal was struck.

    Of course, one can point to lots of good priests within the SSPX who are not liberal and who have resisted liberalization. But considered corporately, the SSPX as measured by its messaging, its priestly formation, its politicking, what it will and won't criticize, has become largely indistinguishable from the Indult groups. It (the SSPX) maintains one very significant difference from the Indult groups which is that the lion's share of its priests are still validly ordained.  Aside from that (which is no small issue), it's hard to tell the difference between the SSPX and the FSSP.

    I've spent some time thinking about the nature of the term/label "SSPX Resistance" as a descriptor for a specific group, and I think the label has expired. The label came about as a way of describing a rather significant exodus of priests all leaving the SSPX (or being expelled) at around the same time, for the same reason: they were opposed to Fellay's intention of striking a deal with modernist Rome. And at the beginning, the label made sense. As time went on and the deal was not made, and as priests had a chance to reconsider various things (like whether they wanted to be part of a group at all, or whether they wanted to maintain an R&R position, or if they did want a group whether it should be headed by Bishop Williamson or someone else, etc.), the label basically became a catch-all for any priest that was left/was expelled from the SSPX due to its liberalization. But that's a label so stretchy it starts to lose its usefulness, since it's referring to priests who are sedes and non-sedes, priests who want an organization and priests who want a loose affiliation, priests who "red light" the SSPX and priests who don't, etc.

    The more and more time passed, the more clear it became that there really was no corporate body that could be called "the Resistance" because there was just too much diversity of opinion and no real corporate unity among them.  This, of course, does not stop people from still talking about "the Resistance" as though it is some corporate body, but I personally don't think it's any more useful than referring to "The (Oyster Bay) Nine" as though that is some corporate body. Like The Nine, the Resistance is really an historical artifact. Some people who belonged to it are still alive, some aren't, some still think exactly what they thought at the time the group existed in corporate unity while some have changed their mind. 

    But in present day, there is no "The Nine"-- there's MHTS, SGG, the SSPV, and a few independent priests. Likewise in present day there is no "SSPX Resistance"-- there's the SJAM, Dom Tomas Aquinas's group, +Williamson's independent bishops, a variety of independent priests, etc. Mind you I am only making a claim about the usefulness of the label as a descriptor of a corporate body.  If you can do a "where are they now?" retrospective on the majority of the members of a group, that's proof that the group just doesn't exist in any meaningful way.
    I think the best example of the SSPX sliding leftwards was moving Bp Williamson from Winona to La Reja, to hide him from the public eye of the Western Journalists (Of course that didn't stop the great Bishop). Let us not forget the SSPX breaking it's own founders ethos of not having Superior General being one of the SSPX Bishops after 1988 yet we got Bp Fellay in 1994!

    While I also somewhat agree that "the messaging, its priestly formation, its politicking, what it will and won't criticize, has become largely indistinguishable from the Indult groups", I do not think the main anecdote of Priest size is true to a large extent as while the SSPX Clerics do have the largest non-tainted line of Priests (Indult uses Post '69 Ordained Bishops so thats tainted), I do think what makes the SSPX stand out is that when they get it right they get it right and actually stands up to conciliarism or modernism hence why they are in a state of "canonical Irregularity". I do think it's by in large also on the Corporate level the SSPX does seem to still use the Facade that they are still the last bastions of the Church and "the only good guys"

    Also while I don't think my knowledge on what to label the SSPX Resistance as,your analogy on the the SSPX Resistance label it reminds me of the idea of conservativism and how many Enlightenment fanatics have not labelled conservativism as not an Ideology per se rather a culture/state of being in a reaction chain. I do think however the late BP Williamson told me he never wanted a corporate SSPX Resistance of an official grouping for himself


    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:


    Offline LakeEnjoyer

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 38
    • Reputation: +32/-4
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #17 on: March 06, 2025, 10:46:06 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • IMO, the next step will be for the Vatican to offer full communion to the SSPX in exchange for the SSPX celebrating the Novus Ordo in Latin and in a "traditional way" that satisfies all of the SSPX's concerns laid out in the following docuмent:

    https://sspx.au/en/traditional-mass-vs-new-mass-33860

    Read that docuмent carefully. The SSPX does not reject the Novus Ordo per se. They reject certain "abuses" and "Protestant" influences, which if excised would leave what the SSPX calls "the Catholic elements." Here is how they put it:

    So, if the SSPX is allowed to celebrate without his "mixture," it will be, according to them, a "Catholic Mass." By making this concession, they will be back in the grace of their "Holy Father" Bergoglio (aka the Antichrist).

    Most of the people in the SSPX pews won't know and won't care to know the difference. They will have their "Latin mass." It will look very similar, almost identical to the untrained eye. But it will be emptied of its Holy Prayers, including removal of "mysterium fidei" from the Consecration of the Blood and, therefore, will invalidate the double consecration necessary to achieve the authentic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    It will look something like this Latin Novus Ordo from the Canons of St. John Cantius:



    I think this is indeed coming down the line. But first, I think they wanted Huonder involved to potentially ordain seminarians, casting doubt on the validity of orders.
    What I find particularly interesting is the prevalence of free-standing altars in many of the neo-SSPX's new "monuments". Are these rather impressive new chapels being designed to potentially accommodate  Novus Ordo priests? Or perhaps something resembling the 1965 Mass?

    Offline ThatBritPapist

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 164
    • Reputation: +101/-23
    • Gender: Male
    • I hate the Anti-Christ.
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #18 on: March 06, 2025, 10:56:34 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think this is indeed coming down the line. But first, I think they wanted Huonder involved to potentially ordain seminarians, casting doubt on the validity of orders.
    What I find particularly interesting is the prevalence of free-standing altars in many of the neo-SSPX's new "monuments". Are these rather impressive new chapels being designed to potentially accommodate  Novus Ordo priests? Or perhaps something resembling the 1965 Mass?
    I understand the issues with a freestanding Altar and the speculation, it's a valid view imho, but the SSPX's Immaculata church gives a "justified" view on it


    One difference in the Immaculata will be a free-standing altar. For many of us, it may be foreign or even a novelty. In fact, for the full solemnity of the liturgy, a free-standing altar is ideal (as one can witness if you visit the main churches of Rome.) As the Old Catholic Encyclopedia from 1910 explains: "Hence it [the high altar] must stand free on all sides, allowing ample room for the consecrator to move around it. As its name indicates, the high altar, being the chief place for the enactment of the sacrificial function, is to be prominent not only by its position but also by the richness of its material and ornamentation." As a practical example, the priest, during a High Mass, will now be able to incense around the entire altar, not simply the front.


    https://www.anewimmaculata.org/blog/2020/3/12/the-sanctuary#:~:text=One%20difference%20in%20the%20Immaculata,the%20main%20churches%20of%20Rome.)

    But I totally accept that a Free standing Altar is susceptible for allowing the Novus Ordo and I will give them the benefit of the doubt out of charity
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline LakeEnjoyer

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 38
    • Reputation: +32/-4
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #19 on: March 06, 2025, 11:31:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I understand the issues with a freestanding Altar and the speculation, it's a valid view imho, but the SSPX's Immaculata church gives a "justified" view on it


    One difference in the Immaculata will be a free-standing altar. For many of us, it may be foreign or even a novelty. In fact, for the full solemnity of the liturgy, a free-standing altar is ideal (as one can witness if you visit the main churches of Rome.) As the Old Catholic Encyclopedia from 1910 explains: "Hence it [the high altar] must stand free on all sides, allowing ample room for the consecrator to move around it. As its name indicates, the high altar, being the chief place for the enactment of the sacrificial function, is to be prominent not only by its position but also by the richness of its material and ornamentation." As a practical example, the priest, during a High Mass, will now be able to incense around the entire altar, not simply the front.


    https://www.anewimmaculata.org/blog/2020/3/12/the-sanctuary#:~:text=One%20difference%20in%20the%20Immaculata,the%20main%20churches%20of%20Rome.)

    But I totally accept that a Free standing Altar is susceptible for allowing the Novus Ordo and I will give them the benefit of the doubt out of charity

    Even giving them benefit of the doubt and assuming best intentions, it still raises questions considering everything else happening within the SSPX.

    I've also heard some attribute this to "French tastes", but to me that explanation doesn’t seem very convincing.


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4055
    • Reputation: +2395/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #20 on: March 06, 2025, 11:40:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ragebait? :laugh2:
    .

    I've never heard the term before, but yes, I think you are correct. :laugh1:

    Offline ThatBritPapist

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 164
    • Reputation: +101/-23
    • Gender: Male
    • I hate the Anti-Christ.
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #21 on: March 06, 2025, 11:46:56 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    I've never heard the term before, but yes, I think you are correct. :laugh1:
    Sorry, it's a young people online word term :laugh1:, it just means a post on social media or a forum designed to make you mad so they can get an interaction or garner attention.
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline LakeEnjoyer

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 38
    • Reputation: +32/-4
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #22 on: March 06, 2025, 11:56:14 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    I've never heard the term before, but yes, I think you are correct. :laugh1:

    Perhaps, but at the same time it is a legitimate question that somebody of good will could very well ask.

    I don't see how asking resistance folk to clarify and justify out position alone could lead to "rage".

    Then again, the lack of engagement on his part might indicate bad intentions. But he might just be reading the thread.


    Offline ThatBritPapist

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 164
    • Reputation: +101/-23
    • Gender: Male
    • I hate the Anti-Christ.
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #23 on: March 06, 2025, 12:14:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Perhaps, but at the same time it is a legitimate question that somebody of good will could very well ask.

    I don't see how asking resistance folk to clarify and justify out position alone could lead to "rage".

    Then again, the lack of engagement on his part might indicate bad intentions. But he might just be reading the thread.
    my exact thought hence why I gave my input and my two pennys on it
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4576
    • Reputation: +5290/-448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #24 on: March 06, 2025, 12:15:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think the best example of the SSPX sliding leftwards was moving Bp Williamson from Winona to La Reja, to hide him from the public eye of the Western Journalists (Of course that didn't stop the great Bishop). Let us not forget the SSPX breaking it's own founders ethos of not having Superior General being one of the SSPX Bishops after 1988 yet we got Bp Fellay in 1994!

    While I also somewhat agree that "the messaging, its priestly formation, its politicking, what it will and won't criticize, has become largely indistinguishable from the Indult groups", I do not think the main anecdote of Priest size is true to a large extent as while the SSPX Clerics do have the largest non-tainted line of Priests (Indult uses Post '69 Ordained Bishops so thats tainted), I do think what makes the SSPX stand out is that when they get it right they get it right and actually stands up to conciliarism or modernism hence why they are in a state of "canonical Irregularity". I do think it's by in large also on the Corporate level the SSPX does seem to still use the Facade that they are still the last bastions of the Church and "the only good guys"

    Also while I don't think my knowledge on what to label the SSPX Resistance as,your analogy on the the SSPX Resistance label it reminds me of the idea of conservativism and how many Enlightenment fanatics have not labelled conservativism as not an Ideology per se rather a culture/state of being in a reaction chain. I do think however the late BP Williamson told me he never wanted a corporate SSPX Resistance of an official grouping for himself
    .
    Yes, Bishop Williamson promoted a loose network of independent but affiliated priests-- even early on. He made it clear that he did not intend to start a new organization, much to the dissatisfaction and disappointment of some. 

    Corporately, the SSPX no longer stands up to modernism-- except maybe in some abstract sense. They do not produce regular content warning about the errors of the Novus Ordo, criticizing the heresies of Bergoglio, etc. There are of course some priests who still do, but as a corporate body the SSPX just doesn't.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46189
    • Reputation: +27175/-5025
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #25 on: March 06, 2025, 12:20:43 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • So between neo-SSPX and Resistance you have two completely different paradigms:

    Resistance:  there's a radical incompatibility between the Conciliar religion that cannot be reconciled and that the Conciliars need to convert back to Tradition.  There's no reconciling the two, and the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church (at least in one sense according to them) and lacks the marks of the Church.

    neo-SSPX:  there are some problems within the Conciliar Church, but it's really and substantially the Catholic Church.  We can work with them to correct those problems from within, and the neo-SSPX are content to have their seat at the table or their niche in the Conciliar pantheon.

    There are not reconcilable.

    Now, in terms of the practical consequences, we're seeing the inevitable result of this blending of neo-SSPX with Conciliarism, the same progression towards Modernism that we saw in the 1940s and 1950s before Vatican II.  We see the SSPX promoting Modernist trash, like Fr. Robinson's heretical book, telling people it's OK to get the jab, that 95% of V2 is Catholic (adopting more the Schneider position), having communicatio in sacris with the Modernists, etc.  We see influxes of Conciliars into SSPX chapels after Jorge shut down the Motus so that the cultures at these chapels are being polluted.  Finally, you have to be "on the lookout" constantly in terms of whether the neo-SSPX might send you some Novus Ordo presider who has not been conditionally ordained in the Traditional Rite and could be subjected to doubtful Sacraments.


    Online Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1301
    • Reputation: +1050/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #26 on: March 06, 2025, 12:42:56 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!2
  • Finally, you have to be "on the lookout" constantly in terms of whether the neo-SSPX might send you some Novus Ordo presider who has not been conditionally ordained in the Traditional Rite and could be subjected to doubtful Sacraments.

    This is terrible. I am practically giving up on the SSPX because of this problem. There's always a converted priest around, leaving doubtfully consecrated hosts on the tabernacle.

    And, as I have stated before, Bp. Thomas Aquinas does not oppose the new rite:


    Quote
    In defense of Fr. Jahir and his priesthood

    We would like to record here our vehement disapproval of those who, among the sedevacantists, attack the Rev. Father Jahir Britto and deny his priesthood.

    It is lighthearted, an act of pride to call into question the priesthood of those who, within Tradition, have always done a great job, like Fr. Jahir, who founded a religious congregation that served and serves countless souls, and whose priesthood was received from a bishop of traditional spirit.

    Dom Lefebvre did not question the ordinations in the new rite. The only thing he said can be questioned is the bishop's intention, and there is no reason to doubt the intention of the bishop who ordained Father Jahir, as he was an old-fashioned bishop, a bishop that Fr. Jahir chose it for its more traditional spirit. So, calling into question the priesthood of the Rev. Padre is disturbing the faithful in an undignified and irresponsible way.

    We rise, therefore, vehemently to defend the priestly honor of Fr. Jahir and remember all the good he did to souls in Bahia and outside Bahia, as well as the good done by his community and in particular by Fr. Joaquim, who was trained by Fr. Jahir and who has assisted souls in many states of Brazil. For the honor of Fr Jahir, his monastery and his faithful, we make this protest, and more than a protest, a condemnation of those who disturb souls by questioning the priesthood of Fr. Jahir Britto.

    May Our Lady bless us and protect us from all error and all groundless disturbance. So be it.

    + Thomas Aquinas, OSB


    Source: https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/em-defesa-do-pe-jahir-e-de-seu-sacerd%C3%B3cio

    So, you are not safe in the Resistance either, in case the other bishops think like him.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32520
    • Reputation: +28732/-566
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #27 on: March 06, 2025, 02:17:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even giving them benefit of the doubt and assuming best intentions, it still raises questions considering everything else happening within the SSPX.

    I've also heard some attribute this to "French tastes", but to me that explanation doesn’t seem very convincing.

    I disagree that the SSPX should be given the benefit of the doubt.
    If a man had a rap sheet of 500 counts of theft over the past 15 years, would you give him "the benefit of the doubt" and let him watch your property while you're on vacation? Why would you treat him like any other Catholic with a good or neutral reputation? Or would his track record PRECLUDE such a naive gift of trust, that was clearly not called for.

    There is such a thing as prudence. And when you destroy your own reputation/good name by your actions, you no longer have a "good name" or any right to a "benefit of the doubt". Especially if there is zero indication you have converted in any way since your "rap sheet" thefts.

    Being charitable doesn't mean being naive or imprudent.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Twice dyed

    • Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 473
    • Reputation: +198/-20
    • Gender: Male
    • Violet, purple, and scarlet twice dyed. EX: 35, 6.
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #28 on: March 06, 2025, 03:22:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Another example concession is that NeoSspx thought the Excommunications of the 4 (6?)  bishops had to be lifted. 
    In the good old days, +Lefebvre explained that they were null and void. Plus, the old SSPX had demanded that the Decree of exco be shredded, because that was in fact what the Decree was: garbage. +L was content to exist outside Modernist Rome anyway.  Then +F wanted recognition, (wreckedco ignition to be more proper.)


    These are very important concepts to study. 
    But the cherry on the cake is when neoSspx THANKED the Pope for the lift !!!



    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Predestination2

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 476
    • Reputation: +111/-115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #29 on: March 06, 2025, 03:59:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Resistance:  there's a radical incompatibility between the Conciliar religion that cannot be reconciled and that the Conciliars need to convert back to Tradition.  There's no reconciling the two, and the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church (at least in one sense according to them) and lacks the marks of the Church.
    But for some reason the heresiarch leader of the conciliar church is the pope of the Catholic Church despite the fact that "there's a radical incompatibility between the Conciliar religion that cannot be reconciled and that the Conciliars need to convert back to Tradition.  There's no reconciling the two, and the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church (at least in one sense according to them) and lacks the marks of the Church." :facepalm:
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K