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Author Topic: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?  (Read 8275 times)

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Offline drphil

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Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
« on: March 05, 2025, 11:22:44 PM »
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  • If the SSPX never actually "implemented" the docuмent or went through with any compromises in 2012 under Fellay then why does the resistance still exist other than the whole controversy with Williamson being kicked out? Didn't the pressure of the sspx resistance and criticisms from sspx priests who remained win out in the end? What's the point? Why not rejoin the SSPX and keep that pressure there, within it, rather than just scattering? I have heard that Fr. Pagliarani is more hardline and skeptical of compromise than Fellay, but this may be nothing more than rumor. I've also heard of some resistance groups rejoining the SSPX recently, like Benedictine monastery I'm very new to this divide and have heard very little about the resistance until Williamson's passing, so feel free to correct me of my ignorance.

    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #1 on: March 05, 2025, 11:26:29 PM »
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  • If the SSPX never actually "implemented" the docuмent or went through with any compromises in 2012 under Fellay then why does the resistance still exist other than the whole controversy with Williamson being kicked out? Didn't the pressure of the sspx resistance and criticisms from sspx priests who remained win out in the end? What's the point? Why not rejoin the SSPX and keep that pressure there, within it, rather than just scattering? I have heard that Fr. Pagliarani is more hardline and skeptical of compromise than Fellay, but this may be nothing more than rumor. I've also heard of some resistance groups rejoining the SSPX recently, like Benedictine monastery I'm very new to this divide and have heard very little about the resistance until Williamson's passing, so feel free to correct me of my ignorance.
    Ragebait? :laugh2:
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:


    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #2 on: March 05, 2025, 11:32:59 PM »
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  • If the SSPX never actually "implemented" the docuмent or went through with any compromises in 2012 under Fellay then why does the resistance still exist other than the whole controversy with Williamson being kicked out? Didn't the pressure of the sspx resistance and criticisms from sspx priests who remained win out in the end? What's the point? Why not rejoin the SSPX and keep that pressure there, within it, rather than just scattering? I have heard that Fr. Pagliarani is more hardline and skeptical of compromise than Fellay, but this may be nothing more than rumor. I've also heard of some resistance groups rejoining the SSPX recently, like Benedictine monastery I'm very new to this divide and have heard very little about the resistance until Williamson's passing, so feel free to correct me of my ignorance.
    on a serious note,If this isnt  ragebait or for the memes I would say since the '90s and after the great Archbishop died the SSPX isn't what it used to be doctrinally, which is why the SSPX Resistance exists, it goes beyonf the 2012 deal at this point. For the record I attend both SSPX and Resistance chapels for the Sacraments, but it's clear that SSPX structures are veering toward conciliarism. As for staying within the SSPX to apply internal pressure, while that may be a valid political tactic, I can’t say for certain—it’s ultimately up to the priests. That said, I can attest that Fr. Pagliarani seems more hardline and skeptical of compromise than Bishop Fellay, given his background as a former IMBC Sedeprivationist seminarian.
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #3 on: March 05, 2025, 11:40:50 PM »
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  • Because of people like Fr. Paul Robinson 
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #4 on: March 05, 2025, 11:43:37 PM »
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  • A newly established account and this is the first posting from that account?

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    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #5 on: March 05, 2025, 11:51:31 PM »
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  • If the SSPX never actually "implemented" the docuмent or went through with any compromises in 2012 under Fellay then why does the resistance still exist other than the whole controversy with Williamson being kicked out? Didn't the pressure of the sspx resistance and criticisms from sspx priests who remained win out in the end? What's the point? Why not rejoin the SSPX and keep that pressure there, within it, rather than just scattering? I have heard that Fr. Pagliarani is more hardline and skeptical of compromise than Fellay, but this may be nothing more than rumor. I've also heard of some resistance groups rejoining the SSPX recently, like Benedictine monastery I'm very new to this divide and have heard very little about the resistance until Williamson's passing, so feel free to correct me of my ignorance.

    Here's a start:

    Things the SSPX has already DONE (past tense) to change, compromise, and contradict +Lefebvre's original apostolate.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/c.htm

    Sean Johnson came up with 100 in 2019 -- he could probably write 5 more follow-up volumes of 100 each by now, IF HE WANTED TO.

    But at some point, it's so obvious, it almost gets boring. The example I like to reference -- back in 2007 there was a housing collapse. At first, only those "in the know" who followed things closely were aware of it. The rest of the people followed the lies of the Media and were clueless. But eventually, it became so mainstream, that certain "housing collapse blogs" actually shut down because, basically, their job was done. It was mainstream now, and continuing the blog was pointless.

    That's about the situation with the SSPX today. Literally every chapel (are there any exceptions?) strives to work as close as possible with the local conciliar bishop, clergy, etc. And the organization has totally changed course with regards to Vatican II and the Conciliar Church. Their seminary formation has changed. Everything.
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    Offline ThatBritPapist

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #6 on: March 05, 2025, 11:57:01 PM »
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  • Here's a start:

    Things the SSPX has already DONE (past tense) to change, compromise, and contradict +Lefebvre's original apostolate.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/c.htm

    Sean Johnson came up with 100 in 2019 -- he could probably write 5 more follow-up volumes of 100 each by now, IF HE WANTED TO.

    But at some point, it's so obvious, it almost gets boring. The example I like to reference -- back in 2007 there was a housing collapse. At first, only those "in the know" who followed things closely were aware of it. The rest of the people followed the lies of the Media and were clueless. But eventually, it became so mainstream, that certain "housing collapse blogs" actually shut down because, basically, their job was done. It was mainstream now, and continuing the blog was pointless.

    That's about the situation with the SSPX today. Literally every chapel (are there any exceptions?) strives to work as close as possible with the local conciliar bishop, clergy, etc. And the organization has totally changed course with regards to Vatican II and the Conciliar Church. Their seminary formation has changed. Everything.
    Couldn't agree more Matthew
    Some People call me a Radical Traditionalist but others call me Shizo.....Oh well :trollface:

    Offline LakeEnjoyer

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #7 on: March 06, 2025, 01:11:17 AM »
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  • In addition to everything else said here, there is a real possibility that in the next generation or so, the SSPX literally will cease to exist. No new bishops mean no new priests - or worse the chance of NO bishops.

    Bishop Williamson has ensured the continuity of tradition for however long this crisis lasts with his consecrations.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #8 on: March 06, 2025, 01:46:18 AM »
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  • That said, I can attest that Fr. Pagliarani seems more hardline and skeptical of compromise than Bishop Fellay, given his background as a former IMBC Sedeprivationist seminarian.
    That's good to know, I wasn't aware he came from sedevacantism. So did Fr Schmidberger. When they 'convert', they often seem to end up Conciliarist - the other side of the same coin as Bishop Williamson never tired of explaining.

    Fr Pagliarani 'hardline'? No, he is to the Society what Benedict XVI was to the Conciliar Church.

    Offline LakeEnjoyer

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #9 on: March 06, 2025, 02:14:55 AM »
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  • Fr Pagliarani 'hardline'? No, he is to the Society what Benedict XVI was to the Conciliar Church.

    Precisely this - otherwise where are the actual fruits to this "hardline" approach? It's business as usual in the Neo-SSPX.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #10 on: March 06, 2025, 02:26:56 AM »
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  • I've also heard of some resistance groups rejoining the SSPX recently, like Benedictine monastery
    That's incorrect. It's actually a case of another Benedictine monastery JOINING the Resistance. The Motherhouse of this German Benedictine monastery is in Bellaigue, France. They had a falling out with the SSPX in 2019, but did not at that time side with the Resistance. The German monastery remained united with its Motherhouse - until just recently when Bellaigue hosted Bishop Morgan of the Resistance... Now if there was no difference between the SSPX and the Resistance, why would this have provoked such a reaction from the German Benedictines?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #11 on: March 06, 2025, 02:52:14 AM »
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  • If the SSPX never actually "implemented" the docuмent or went through with any compromises in 2012 under Fellay then why does the resistance still exist... Didn't the pressure of the sspx resistance and criticisms from sspx priests who remained win out in the end?
    The Resistance to an agreement with modernist Rome in 2012 from a large part of the SSPX undoubtedly foiled the plan of Bishop Fellay for the imminent agreement he had arranged with Pope Benedict XVI.

    However, the Resistance did not win out. Quite the opposite. The SSPX has now been purged of the Resistance element by ruthless Menzingen authority more intent than even on a legal position in the Conciliar Church. This can be seen by the revolutionary resolutions of the 2012 Extraordinary General Chapter, and the appointments of ralliers Bishop Fellay and Fr Schmidberger to two new positions specially created for them by the 2018 General Chapter.

    The SSPX gleefully received the New Church Bishop Huonder under their roof, sent by Pope Francis amid contradictory and deceitful declarations, allowing him to exercise a ministry without any care for sacramental validity. They hailed him as a convert to Tradition. Yet the true convert to Tradition from the Conciliar Church, Archbishop Vigano, was given the cold shoulder, and that was well before he expressed any sedevacantist opinions. You can see by their choice of friends what the New SSPX stands for...

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #12 on: March 06, 2025, 09:39:59 AM »
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  • I think OP's questions are in good faith-- for those who lived "in the Resistance" as it was happening, the events probably seem closer, but it's been more than ten years and there are a lot of people who are analyzing the events after the fact, as part of traditionalist history.

    While it is true that the SSPX did not reach an open and formal agreement with modernist Rome, it is equally true that the SSPX has slid leftward, and continues to slide leftward, since ~2012 (I agree with Britpapist that this leftward slide actually dates to ABL's death-- but it's accelerated over the last 10-15 years).  The Resistance as originally formulated was motivated by resistance to and rejection of any deal, but the spirit of it was also opposed to increased liberalization of the SSPX whether or not a deal was struck.

    Of course, one can point to lots of good priests within the SSPX who are not liberal and who have resisted liberalization. But considered corporately, the SSPX as measured by its messaging, its priestly formation, its politicking, what it will and won't criticize, has become largely indistinguishable from the Indult groups. It (the SSPX) maintains one very significant difference from the Indult groups which is that the lion's share of its priests are still validly ordained.  Aside from that (which is no small issue), it's hard to tell the difference between the SSPX and the FSSP.

    I've spent some time thinking about the nature of the term/label "SSPX Resistance" as a descriptor for a specific group, and I think the label has expired. The label came about as a way of describing a rather significant exodus of priests all leaving the SSPX (or being expelled) at around the same time, for the same reason: they were opposed to Fellay's intention of striking a deal with modernist Rome. And at the beginning, the label made sense. As time went on and the deal was not made, and as priests had a chance to reconsider various things (like whether they wanted to be part of a group at all, or whether they wanted to maintain an R&R position, or if they did want a group whether it should be headed by Bishop Williamson or someone else, etc.), the label basically became a catch-all for any priest that was left/was expelled from the SSPX due to its liberalization. But that's a label so stretchy it starts to lose its usefulness, since it's referring to priests who are sedes and non-sedes, priests who want an organization and priests who want a loose affiliation, priests who "red light" the SSPX and priests who don't, etc.

    The more and more time passed, the more clear it became that there really was no corporate body that could be called "the Resistance" because there was just too much diversity of opinion and no real corporate unity among them.  This, of course, does not stop people from still talking about "the Resistance" as though it is some corporate body, but I personally don't think it's any more useful than referring to "The (Oyster Bay) Nine" as though that is some corporate body. Like The Nine, the Resistance is really an historical artifact. Some people who belonged to it are still alive, some aren't, some still think exactly what they thought at the time the group existed in corporate unity while some have changed their mind.  

    But in present day, there is no "The Nine"-- there's MHTS, SGG, the SSPV, and a few independent priests. Likewise in present day there is no "SSPX Resistance"-- there's the SJAM, Dom Tomas Aquinas's group, +Williamson's independent bishops, a variety of independent priests, etc. Mind you I am only making a claim about the usefulness of the label as a descriptor of a corporate body.  If you can do a "where are they now?" retrospective on the majority of the members of a group, that's proof that the group just doesn't exist in any meaningful way.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #13 on: March 06, 2025, 09:43:24 AM »
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  • In addition to everything else said here, there is a real possibility that in the next generation or so, the SSPX literally will cease to exist. No new bishops mean no new priests - or worse the chance of NO bishops.

    Bishop Williamson has ensured the continuity of tradition for however long this crisis lasts with his consecrations.

    IMO, the next step will be for the Vatican to offer full communion to the SSPX in exchange for the SSPX celebrating the Novus Ordo in Latin and in a "traditional way" that satisfies all of the SSPX's concerns laid out in the following docuмent:

    https://sspx.au/en/traditional-mass-vs-new-mass-33860

    Read that docuмent carefully. The SSPX does not reject the Novus Ordo per se. They reject certain "abuses" and "Protestant" influences, which if excised would leave what the SSPX calls "the Catholic elements." Here is how they put it:

    Quote
    Some of the elements that make up the New Mass are Catholic: a priest, bread and wine, genuflections, signs of the Cross, etc. But some are also Protestant: a table, common-place utensils, communion under both kinds and in the hand, etc. The New Mass mixes these heterodox elements alongside the Catholic ones to form a liturgy which would marry the Church and the world, Catholicism and Protestantism, light and darkness. 

    So, if the SSPX is allowed to celebrate without his "mixture," it will be, according to them, a "Catholic Mass." By making this concession, they will be back in the grace of their "Holy Father" Bergoglio (aka the Antichrist).

    Most of the people in the SSPX pews won't know and won't care to know the difference. They will have their "Latin mass." It will look very similar, almost identical to the untrained eye. But it will be emptied of its Holy Prayers, including removal of "mysterium fidei" from the Consecration of the Blood and, therefore, will invalidate the double consecration necessary to achieve the authentic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    It will look something like this Latin Novus Ordo from the Canons of St. John Cantius:



    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Why is the SSPX Resistance still a thing?
    « Reply #14 on: March 06, 2025, 09:45:31 AM »
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  • If the SSPX never actually "implemented" the docuмent or went through with any compromises in 2012 under Fellay then why does the resistance still exist...
    Nothing " implemented"..?

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/headline-news-around-the-world/item/3807-sspx-and-the-novus-ordo-a-new-spirit-of-cooperation

    The article says this wedding was Feb 10, 2018. 
    Neo Sspx in Canada still use " Planto Prrotect" for their WOKE agenda...ie. boys ok in female washrooms blah blah blah   ,gender ID, 
    So if you don't have a problem with that, then you are not awake.
    Pray+

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