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Author Topic: How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?  (Read 1914 times)

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Offline jman123

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How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
« on: April 09, 2016, 10:26:39 PM »
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  • That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible. What do you think the SSPX will now do ?

    In contrast, what would Archishop Lefebvre have said?


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #1 on: April 10, 2016, 11:09:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: jman123
    That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible. What do you think the SSPX will now do ?

    In contrast, what would Archishop Lefebvre have said?

    I can tell you my priest today spoke strongly against it, I think it's a good litmus test at least for my chapel that they are still orthodox , I think if he were to ignore it or justify it in any way I would seriously think about leaving...can't speak for other chapels but for now I don't see any reason to leave my sspx chapel..I'd like to hear some other's take on this


    Offline hollingsworth

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 09:58:37 AM »
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  • iman:
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    That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible.


    Can you point to specific parts of it which are terrible?  I'm trying to plow through this very long docuмent now.  Maybe I'm trying to read it too fast.  But thus far anyway I haven't found anything "terrible."  Help me out.

    Offline ultrarigorist

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #3 on: April 11, 2016, 10:07:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    iman:
    Quote
    That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible.


    Can you point to specific parts of it which are terrible?  I'm trying to plow through this very long docuмent now.  Maybe I'm trying to read it too fast.  But thus far anyway I haven't found anything "terrible."  Help me out.


    Hardly surprising, since you can't find anything wrong with Valtorta either.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #4 on: April 11, 2016, 10:43:27 AM »
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  • ultra:
    Quote
    Hardly surprising, since you can't find anything wrong with Valtorta either.


    Cheap shot.  Still no answer to my question.  Anyone?  I would prefer that somebody whom I respect might step forward with substantive passages from the docuмent, which help point up how terrible it is.  Seriously, I'm willing to be shown why I should think it to be as terrible as some say that it is.


    Offline TKGS

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 10:58:44 AM »
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  • How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?

    The same way they respond to all the non-Catholic docuмents that come out of the Vatican.  They'll criticize it and then go on as if it doesn't exist.  Isn't this what all R&R do?

    Offline Cantarella

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 11:05:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    iman:
    Quote
    That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible.


    Can you point to specific parts of it which are terrible?  I'm trying to plow through this very long docuмent now.  Maybe I'm trying to read it too fast.  But thus far anyway I haven't found anything "terrible."  Help me out.


    Quote from: AL, Paragraph 301
    Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situations are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values” [?], or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin.


    There are other specific examples here:


    Pope Francis Departs from Church Teaching in New Exhortation

    www.onepeterfive.com/pope-francis-departs-from-church-teaching-in-new-exhortation/
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 12:26:25 PM »
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  • Thanks, Cantarella, that's certainly a start.  Yes, troubling.  My suspicion is, though, that some (trads) who write off this very lengthy docuмent have really not read its contents, and make snap judgments.


    Offline stgobnait

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 12:45:39 PM »
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  • Well, some of us might wait until you have read this lengthy docuмent, and tell us what you think it really means, and so preserve us from making snappy judgements!

    Offline B from A

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 04:09:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: hollingsworth
    iman:
    Quote
    That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible.
    Can you point to specific parts of it which are terrible?  I'm trying to plow through this very long docuмent now.  Maybe I'm trying to read it too fast.  But thus far anyway I haven't found anything "terrible."  Help me out.
    Quote from: AL, Paragraph 301
    Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situations are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values” [?], or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin.
    There are other specific examples here:

    Pope Francis Departs from Church Teaching in New Exhortation

    www.onepeterfive.com/pope-francis-departs-from-church-teaching-in-new-exhortation/


    Quote from: hollingsworth
    Thanks, Cantarella, that's certainly a start.  Yes, troubling.  My suspicion is, though, that some (trads) who write off this very lengthy docuмent have really not read its contents, and make snap judgments.


    In addition to the article Cantarella posted above, here are a few more.  So far, the majority I've seen are not by what we might consider full-fledged "Trads", but rather sort of conservative Novus Ordo. Just saying that, in that it seems unlikely that conservative N.O. types, who usually bend over backwards to excuse problems with the Conciliar popes, are unlikely to be making snap judgments against one.  I haven't bothered to read these articles (so also can't vouch for them), but maybe the articles will have footnotes, to prove the problems are in the docuмent.  (?)

    I don't know if links work yet, so just remove any spaces I put in the links below.  

    http: // rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/ 2016/04/amoris-laetitia-in-conflict-with.html
    'Amoris laetitia' in conflict with the Catholic Faith

    http:// voiceofthefamily.com/ catholics-cannot-accept-elements-of-apostolic-exhortation-that-threaten-faith-and-family/
    CATHOLICS CANNOT ACCEPT ELEMENTS OF APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION THAT THREATEN FAITH AND FAMILY

    http:// remnantnewspaper.com /web/index.php/articles/item/2421-pope-francis-the-apostolic-exhortation-and-the-age-of-individual-conscience
    Pope Francis, the Apostolic Exhortation and the Age of Individual Conscience

    http:// www.cfnews.org/page88/files/eef697b31863ac4b1bb8405c418215e8-561.html
    Exhortation: Francis Advances Situation Ethics - Subverts Moral Theology






    Offline hollingsworth

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 05:04:43 PM »
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  • Cantarella quoted a portion of paragraph #301 above.  Here is the  whole of that paragraph for our instruction hopefully:

                                    Mitigating factors in pastoral discernment
    301. For an adequate understanding of the possibility and need of special discernment in certain “irregular” situations, one thing must always be taken into account, lest anyone think that the demands of the Gospel are in any way being compromised. The Church possesses a solid body of reflection concerning mitigating factors and situations. Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values”,339 or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin. As the Synod Fathers put it, “factors may exist which limit the ability to make a decision”.340 Saint Thomas Aquinas himself recognized that someone may possess grace and charity, yet not be able to exercise any one of the virtues well;341 in other words, although someone may possess all the infused moral 339 John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (22 November 1981), 33: AAS 74 (1982), 121. 340 Relatio Finalis 2015, 51. 341 Cf. Summa Theologiae I-II, q. 65, art. 3 ad 2; De Malo, q. 2, art. 2. 233 virtues, he does not clearly manifest the existence of one of them, because the outward practice of that virtue is rendered difficult: “Certain saints are said not to possess certain virtues, in so far as they experience difficulty in the acts of those virtues, even though they have the habits of all the virtues”.342


    Offline Croixalist

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    How will SSPX respond to Amoris Laetitia?
    « Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 05:37:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Conspiracy_Factist
    Quote from: jman123
    That docuмent by Pope Francis is terrible. What do you think the SSPX will now do ?

    In contrast, what would Archishop Lefebvre have said?

    I can tell you my priest today spoke strongly against it, I think it's a good litmus test at least for my chapel that they are still orthodox , I think if he were to ignore it or justify it in any way I would seriously think about leaving...can't speak for other chapels but for now I don't see any reason to leave my sspx chapel..I'd like to hear some other's take on this


    Same for my chapel. There's hope yet!
    Fortuna finem habet.