Author Topic: Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)  (Read 4444 times)

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Offline Ratisbonne

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Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
« on: June 01, 2012, 10:05:49 AM »
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  • The SSPX.org website has this article now:

    http://sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/interpreting_words_of_archbishop_lefebvre_part_1_5-22-2012.htm

    It is the work of Fr. Gregoire Celier, although someone else seems to have done this finishing.

    Who is Fr. Celier?  Should we listen to him?  He is a modernist, yes, a modernist inside the SSPX right now.

    He promotes combing the True Mass and the Novus Ordo. He calls it the "Pipaule" mass, combing the Tridentine Mass of Pope St. Pius V with the Novus Ordo of Paul VI.

    Read this over at Ignis Ardens:

    http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=5066&st=25&#entry9606806



    Partial text of the article:

    ...
    Now, about Fr. Celier, you can find much information on the net, but mainly in French.

    In his book "Benedict XVI and the traditionalists", written in the form of dialogue with journalist Olivier Pichon and published in February 2007, five months before the motu proprio Summorum pontificum, Father Celier writes (pages 195-201):

    I think it is important to emphasize that we are about to identify in the coming decades a new situation, complex and versatile. Today things are relatively settled and therefore clear: on one side are those who celebrate the new liturgy, on the other side those who celebrate the traditional liturgy. Now I think that soon there will be a "liturgic offer" with an incredible diversity, from the more progressive disheveled mass to the strictest traditional mass, passing through all the colors of the rainbow.

    Indeed, some young "officialist" priests in a significant proportion are interested in the traditional prayer book, study it, come to the Priories or traditionalists pilgrimages to see how this mass is celebrated. Many become "bi-ritualists", celebrating the traditional Mass in private, while praying the new Mass in public. And this phenomenon tends to increase.

    The practice of the two rites is not neutral, one inevitably fades over another. I think we will attend to a phenomenon that the history of the liturgy mentioned, namely the contamination of a ritual on the other.

    It seems that our contemporaries will perhaps become witness of the birth of a new rite: the "pipaule" mass. Pipaule mass would simply be a mixture of Saint Pius V's rite ("Pie") and Paul VI's rite ("Paul").

    The young priests, will introduce parts of the traditional liturgy into the new rite.

    It is quite important to note that fr. Celier uses the words "the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching" that five months later would appear in the motu proprio Summorum pontificum.

    Then, fr. Celier, in order to retraditionalize, proposes to Benedict XVI:

    a) That Rome limits itself to increasingly open the doors to what is traditional and to take care of the bishops, who openly would want to avoid this return to tradition.

    Over the years, with the gradual arrival of more priests linked to the liturgical tradition and trained in their youth with traditional rites, the new liturgy will irrigate more traditional formulas and traditional spirit.

    So, perhaps it would be born and imposed over the years, this hybrid rite which I called humorously the "pipaule" mass.

    b) Rome would appeal to neutralize his opponents of using the very principles of the new liturgy. And at first, its very open character. In the rites now everything is free to the ɛƖɛctıon, proposing numerous options. Rome could then add the traditional offertory among possible choices. In this scenario, Rome will certainly use the idea for the promotion of tradition, the same arguments of progressives: freedom, wealth of choice, age of the texts...

    Now, fr. Celier (a priest in good standing in the Society) was authorized to collaborate in a "modernist memory book" and made a proposal suggesting that a rite derived from the mixture of the modernist and traditionalist liturgies would be fully satisfactory?

    The memory book Benedict XVI 2010 comes with a text taken from Benedict XVI's words for each month. Then, for each week, one comment (regarding the Pope's quote) is inserted. These comments were written by several bishops and priests of the conciliar Church, charismatic figures, Opus Dei members, together with various groups Ecclesia Dei (as Father Philippe Laguérie the Good Shepherd Institute, a monk of the monastery Barroux of the Superior of France from the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King). The Society of St. Pius X also contributed in this initiative, authorizing the Father Grégoire Celier to publish his reflections on this agenda...

    The comment of a priest member of the Society of St. Pius X is in the week of June 27 to Saturday, July 3 (just for the usual priestly ordinations in Ecône). It opens with the following quote from Benedict XVI:

    "The ars celebrandi must enhance the sense of the sacred and the use of external forms"

    Ars celebrandi means the art of celebrating.

    And, in this ecumenical context, the commentary of Father Grégoire Celier is entitled: "The ars celebrandi can suffice?"

    Here is the full text:

    Joseph Ratzinger was very interested in the liturgical question. He tried, in particular, to stand out that the most beautiful rite, if "is inhabited spiritually", if does not live in the faith and enthusiasm, is taking the risk of sounding without supernatural taste.

    The pope points out as one of the main causes of the current crisis, the disappearance of what Dom Guéranger used to call "the unction", this spirit of liturgical prayer, which he calls the ars celebrandi. To rediscover it, Benedict XVI expressed the desire for a new liturgical movement that would spread "the spirit of the liturgy."

    Catholics linked to the tradition shares this concern with the Pope. It is clear that the liturgy is not a collection of rubrics prescribed by the authority and which would be sufficient to apply as an religious official. In first place, it is a prayer, then an art of celebrating, and finally, the "primary and indispensable source of true Christian spirit". The most beautiful office, if celebrated without faith nor inner, loses its spiritual taste and can be reduced to a caricature sometimes sacrilegious.

    To fully regain the love of the liturgy, our time effectively need a liturgical movement inspired by Dom Guéranger's

    But it seems difficult to argue that the current crisis would come only from a lack of liturgical spirit. This would ignore the main fact: the radical transformation of their own rites.

    The liturgical books resulting from the post-conciliar reform involve some serious deficiencies which, if not themselves become disabled, they weigh on them a heavy load.

    It is enough to mention that, in the Mass, the virtual disappearance of the sacrificial dimension, in particular for voluntary suppression of traditional offertory. In this respect, the Catholic tradition consistently stated that in its current form, the new liturgy is unacceptable.

    However, the full freedom of the traditional liturgy, finally recognized in 2007, is a capital step towards fully satisfactory rites and towards a true ars celebrandi.

    A copy of the pages where this comment is can be downloaded from:

    http://200.33.240.3/~jaflores/replica/AgendaPCelier.pdf

    Of course, Dom Gueranguer's liturgical movement was exactly the opposite to the one proposed by fr. Celier.

    Fr. Celier seems to take the right direction when he disapproves the modern liturgy, but then he lies when asserts the fully freedom of the traditional liturgy was recognized by the Summorum pontificum. And, even worse, when he considers this document as a capital step towards fully satisfactory rites. Obviously he is referring to the pipaule mass...

    ...







    Offline Ethelred

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 10:35:28 AM »
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  • Unbelievable.
    Each week it's getting more unbelievable.
    The modernistic messing up the SSPX goes on for many years now. Just now it comes out "concentrated".

    Heaven help us.


    Offline catherineofsiena

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #2 on: June 01, 2012, 01:33:31 PM »
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  • It's worse than I thought.  How did this get overlooked for so many years?
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 01:38:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: catherineofsiena
    It's worse than I thought.  How did this get overlooked for so many years?


    In being taught to reject sedevacantist arguments many were led to lose the faculty of critically examining the agenda of those who have had such bees in their bonnets about sedevacantism.

    That is, it takes a critical eye to recognize the intrusion of modernist leanings.  And by condemning sedes at every turn when the sedes point out flagrant examples, the wits of those who should be able to recognize the modernism have been dulled.  More subtle corruptions no longer make an impression on them when they've been taught to disregard the exposure of flagrant errors as sede propaganda.




    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 04:27:22 PM »
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  •  :shocked:
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 04:34:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Seraphim
    :shocked:


    I'm confused:

    Is Fr Celier saying here what he wants to happen, or simply what he predicts will happen?

    Two very different things.

    One would make him a modernist; the other a mere commentator.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Henry4

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #6 on: January 14, 2016, 06:11:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Seraphim
    :shocked:


    I'm confused:

    Is Fr Celier saying here what he wants to happen, or simply what he predicts will happen?

    Two very different things.

    One would make him a modernist; the other a mere commentator.


    It appears Mr. Johnson is now a modernist!

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #7 on: January 14, 2016, 06:20:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Seraphim
    :shocked:


    I'm confused:

    Is Fr Celier saying here what he wants to happen, or simply what he predicts will happen?

    Two very different things.

    One would make him a modernist; the other a mere commentator.


    Either way, Fr. Celier is a modernist.
    Could he be a KGB agent?
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Colombiere

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 10:44:37 AM »
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  • I heard lay folks talk about a "hybrid Mass" being inevitable about 8 years ago. Their reasoning was that the Novus Ordo Mass was never going to go away. I don't know where they got this idea. What do you call it when someone foretells something happening and that plants the idea (intentional or not)?

    Offline BJ5

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #9 on: January 15, 2016, 11:28:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Colombiere
    I heard lay folks talk about a "hybrid Mass" being inevitable about 8 years ago. Their reasoning was that the Novus Ordo Mass was never going to go away. I don't know where they got this idea. What do you call it when someone foretells something happening and that plants the idea (intentional or not)?


    They got it from Cdl Muller.

    Offline BJ5

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #10 on: January 15, 2016, 11:29:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maria Regina
    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Seraphim
    :shocked:


    I'm confused:

    Is Fr Celier saying here what he wants to happen, or simply what he predicts will happen?

    Two very different things.

    One would make him a modernist; the other a mere commentator.


    Either way, Fr. Celier is a modernist.
    Could he be a KGB agent?


    Probably just a closet Jew Mason.


    Offline Matthew

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    Who is Fr. Celier (author of Interpreting Abp Lefebvre)
    « Reply #11 on: January 15, 2016, 06:40:41 PM »
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  • John McFarland chimed in:

    Quote
    Do you suppose that you could explain to R. that

    (1) since Fr. Celier has no good word for the possible hybrid that he "humorously" calls the "pipaule" Mass, it is highly unlikely that he is in favor of it; and

    (2) since in his remarks in Pope Benedict's calendar, Fr. Celier (a) criticizes the loss of the sacrificial character of the Mass in the Novus Ordo, and (b) appeals to the spirit of Dom Gueranger, the greatest Catholic liturgist of the last several centuries if not the last millennium, it is a lead pipe cinch that Father is no modernist.

    John McFarland
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