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Author Topic: Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?  (Read 2180 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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  • This post was off-topic and maybe someone is interested.

    Source thread


    Quote from: sspxbvm
     FATHER HEWKO MUST GO BACK TO HIS PRIORY AND CONTINUE TO PREACH THE TRUTH FROM THERE. THIS WILL MAKE HIS EVENTUAL REMOVAL INVALID AND IS ALSO WHAT BISHOP WILLIAMSON DID.  RIGHT NOW AS IT STANDS WITH HE AND THE OTHERS HAVING ESTABLISHED A PRIORY WITHOUT IT BEING CANONICALLY ERECTED THEIR PUNISHMENTS ARE BINDING. NOT FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH BUT FOR ESTABLISHING A PRIORY. THIS IS GOING ABOUT IT THE WRONG WAY!

      As it stands we cannot throw all our weight into the success of these priests. Especially knowing the prophecies of our Lady. God save us.




    Somehow I missed this previously.  I think you're overlooking a lot, sspxbvm.  

    Fr. Hewko is not required to explain to you all the bases of his decisions.  He did
    not make this choice (to be involved with the Resistance) haphazardly.  He gave
    it due consideration for many days, and many miles and many blisters.  

    Far be it from you to pass judgment on his course of action.

    Add to that, that it would seem you have doubts about the judgment also of
    the Bishop who offered Pontifical Mass for the Feast of the Circuмcision there.

    This is the same deal ABL faced when he kept on keeping on.  He was being
    forbidden all kinds of things by his so-called legitimate superior, the Pope.  Why
    don't you press your concerns at that point?  

    But this is really a different topic you're bringing up, and that's why I made it
    a new thread.  

    The other thread is for what's happening, not this topic:  why it should not be
    happening.  

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Francisco

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 02:05:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    This post was off-topic and maybe someone is interested.

    Source thread


    Quote from: sspxbvm
     FATHER HEWKO MUST GO BACK TO HIS PRIORY AND CONTINUE TO PREACH THE TRUTH FROM THERE. THIS WILL MAKE HIS EVENTUAL REMOVAL INVALID AND IS ALSO WHAT BISHOP WILLIAMSON DID.  RIGHT NOW AS IT STANDS WITH HE AND THE OTHERS HAVING ESTABLISHED A PRIORY WITHOUT IT BEING CANONICALLY ERECTED THEIR PUNISHMENTS ARE BINDING. NOT FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH BUT FOR ESTABLISHING A PRIORY. THIS IS GOING ABOUT IT THE WRONG WAY!

      As it stands we cannot throw all our weight into the success of these priests. Especially knowing the prophecies of our Lady. God save us.




    Somehow I missed this previously.  I think you're overlooking a lot, sspxbvm.  

    Fr. Hewko is not required to explain to you all the bases of his decisions.  He did
    not make this choice (to be involved with the Resistance) haphazardly.  He gave
    it due consideration for many days, and many miles and many blisters.  

    Far be it from you to pass judgment on his course of action.

    Add to that, that it would seem you have doubts about the judgment also of
    the Bishop who offered Pontifical Mass for the Feast of the Circuмcision there.

    This is the same deal ABL faced when he kept on keeping on.  He was being
    forbidden all kinds of things by his so-called legitimate superior, the Pope.  Why
    don't you press your concerns at that point?  

    But this is really a different topic you're bringing up, and that's why I made it
    a new thread.  

    The other thread is for what's happening, not this topic:  why it should not be
    happening.  


    It is only the (Conciliar) Church that grants Canonical recognition. The SSPX is not canonically recognized by Rome. sspxbvm must be aware of this. In fact Bp Fellay is seeking just that recognition. Not being a Church by itself the SSPX has no power to canonically erect anything.

    sspxbvm please explain yourself a bit more. Also, I wish to understand how and which of Our Lady's prophecies are relevant to this issue.



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 11:15:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Francisco
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    This post was off-topic and maybe someone is interested.

    Source thread


    Quote from: sspxbvm
     FATHER HEWKO MUST GO BACK TO HIS PRIORY AND CONTINUE TO PREACH THE TRUTH FROM THERE. THIS WILL MAKE HIS EVENTUAL REMOVAL INVALID AND IS ALSO WHAT BISHOP WILLIAMSON DID.  RIGHT NOW AS IT STANDS WITH HE AND THE OTHERS HAVING ESTABLISHED A PRIORY WITHOUT IT BEING CANONICALLY ERECTED THEIR PUNISHMENTS ARE BINDING. NOT FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH BUT FOR ESTABLISHING A PRIORY. THIS IS GOING ABOUT IT THE WRONG WAY!

      As it stands we cannot throw all our weight into the success of these priests. Especially knowing the prophecies of our Lady. God save us.




    Somehow I missed this previously.  I think you're overlooking a lot, sspxbvm.  

    Fr. Hewko is not required to explain to you all the bases of his decisions.  He did
    not make this choice (to be involved with the Resistance) haphazardly.  He gave
    it due consideration for many days, and many miles and many blisters.  

    Far be it from you to pass judgment on his course of action.

    Add to that, that it would seem you have doubts about the judgment also of
    the Bishop who offered Pontifical Mass for the Feast of the Circuмcision there.

    This is the same deal ABL faced when he kept on keeping on.  He was being
    forbidden all kinds of things by his so-called legitimate superior, the Pope.  Why
    don't you press your concerns at that point?  

    But this is really a different topic you're bringing up, and that's why I made it
    a new thread.  

    The other thread is for what's happening, not this topic:  why it should not be
    happening.  


    It is only the (Conciliar) Church that grants Canonical recognition. The SSPX is not canonically recognized by Rome. sspxbvm must be aware of this. In fact Bp Fellay is seeking just that recognition. Not being a Church by itself the SSPX has no power to canonically erect anything.

    sspxbvm please explain yourself a bit more. Also, I wish to understand how and which of Our Lady's prophecies are relevant to this issue.




    Well.....

    If you believe that the canonical erection of the SSPX by the Bishop of Fribourg, Switzerland was legitimate...

    And that the subsequent suppression of the same SSPX after the visit of Cardinal Gagnon was not legitimate because of canonical irregularities n said suppression...

    Then you could make the argument that the SSPX is in fact a lawfully and canonically erected and approved pius union.

    Interestingly enough, over the years, the SSPX has made this very claim, yet seemingly contradicted the same claim at least implicitly when negotiating for canonical recognition.

    It is an interesting subject.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline FrayDomingo

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 05:24:43 PM »
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  • Even if the SSPX was still canonically erected, which certainly can be argued, it could not canonically erect a priory without first having obtained the permission of the local Ordinary. A Pious Union did not have power to erect priories or houses without the local bishop's permission. The only argument to erect a priory would be due to the state of emergency, and that would not make it a canonical act.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 06:34:21 PM »
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  • Fr. Cekada wrote a good article on the legal status of the SSPX.  I think it may answer some questions in this discussion.  

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=84&catname=12
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 06:24:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Fr. Cekada wrote a good article on the legal status of the SSPX.  I think it may answer some questions in this discussion.  

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=84&catname=12




    I get a bit tired of reading other websites in context.  Maybe I'm not the only one...


    Articles: SSPX: Society of St. Pius X

    The Legal Status of SSPX and Its Former Members
    Rev. Anthony Cekada

    What type of organization is the Society?

    Do priests who leave it become public sinners?

     

    QUESTION: The Rev. Peter Scott was recently asked, “What is one to think of priests who have left the Society of St. Pius X?” Fr. Scott gave a variety of reasons for condemning such priests, including the following:

          (1) The “engagements” which priests make when joining the Society are “not in any way essentially different” from the vows one takes to join a religious order.

          (2) These engagements bind members to SSPX “under pain of mortal sin, just as a religious is bound by his vow of obedience.”

          (3) Priests who leave SSPX after making a “perpetual engagement” are “public sinners” and are to be equated with “a married person who has broken his vows and fallen into adultery.” One may not receive sacraments from such priests “except in danger of death.”

          (4) Priests who have made “temporary engagement” in SSPX are morally bound to join a diocese “or another religious community.”

          (5) A priest who leaves SSPX has also broken the “public vow of obedience” included in the ordination ceremony.

          (6) Such a priest also violates the pre-ordination Oath of Fidelity prescribed by canon law, and becomes “a hypocrite and a public sinner.”

          (7) An SSPX priest makes a “declaration of fidelity” to the “positions of the Society” (on the pope, New Mass, John XXIII Missal, etc.), declaring his desire to “show the obedience binding me to my superiors, as also the obedience binding me to the Roman Pontiff in all his legitimate acts,” so that no priest can leave SSPX if he becomes a sedevacantist, etc.

          (8) And that for all the foregoing reasons, priests who have left SSPX “are to be avoided at all costs.”

          What is your opinion of Fr. Scott’s reasoning?

     

    ANSWER: Father Scott’s starting point for all these condemnations is a hidden assumption: that the Society of St. Pius X enjoys the canonical status of a “society of the common life without vows” — an entity in canon law akin to a religious order. (Familiar examples of such societies include the Maryknoll Fathers, the Paulist Fathers, and the Oratorians.)

          Joining such a society brings with it canonical obligations (Fr. Scott’s argument goes), and so by abandoning SSPX, a priest violates these obligations, becomes a public sinner, etc., etc.

          Well, as regards canon law, at least, Fr. Scott is living in fantasyland.

     

    1.   What Is SSPX? Just what kind of canonical entity is SSPX? Is it indeed something like the Maryknollers or the Paulists? We need only look back to its foundation.

          On November 1, 1970, the Bishop of Fribourg, Switzerland issued a Decree establishing “The International Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius” as a "pious union" (pia unio), whose stated purpose was to form priests and re-distribute clergy to places where they were needed, in conformity with the Vatican II Decree on Priestly Formation, Optatum Totius.

          In the Code of Canon Law, a pious union is simply an approved association of the faithful — laymen or clerics — engaged in some pious or charitable work (canon 707).

          Some familiar examples of pious unions: The Confraternity of Christian Doctrine (teaches catechism), the St. Vincent de Paul Society (charitable work with the poor), and the Near East Society (supports poor Catholic clergy in the Near East). The rules for these organizations tend to be very simple; they are easy to join and easy to resign from.

          Obviously, the devout ladies who teach CCD to the public school kiddies and the affable old Vincent de Paul grandpas who collect clothing for the poor don’t belong to a church organization on the same canonical plane as the Maryknoll Missioners or the Paulist Fathers.

          And it takes only five minutes of research to confirm this impression with other evidence, as well: The Code of Canon Law treats societies of the common life without vows in its section on religious orders (Book II, Part 2, cc. 673–81). Pious unions, on the other hand, the Code treats in its section on the laity (Book II, Part 3, cc. 707–719).

          Nor is this all: A pious union, it turns out, is the lowest creature in the ecclesiastical food chain. It is not merely classified under “Laity” — canon 701 puts it dead last in order of precedence. Thus even Third Order Sodalities (lay Carmelites, Franciscans, etc.) and Archconfraternities (Rosary, Blessed Sacrament) outrank a pious union.

          How likely is it that member who leaves such an organization incurs all the blood-curdling canonical and moral consequences that Fr. Scott summons up?

     

    2.   What Rules Bind Members? In any religious institute recognized by the Church — be it an order, a congregation or a society — rules and constitutions set forth the obligations a member assumes through his vows or promises. These laws obtain binding force only after they receive official approval from an ecclesiastical authority possessing ordinary jurisdiction — either the Diocesan Bishop or the Pope, acting through the Roman Congregations.

          Which set of laws supposedly created the obligations for members of the Society of St. Pius X, and how did these laws obtain their binding force?

          In 1970 the Society submitted its proposed Statutes to the Bishop of Fribourg. In his Decree of Foundation, the Bishop approved these Statues for an experimental period of six years. They would then be renewable for another six years. After this, the Decree provided, SSPX could become definitively established, either in his diocese or by the competent Vatican Congregation.

          There was not much to the 1970 Statutes. They consisted of about two-dozen pages of exhortations, typewritten and double-spaced — everything from “the tabernacle shall be their television” to limited opportunities for Novus Ordo-style concelebration. Such a docuмent was entirely consistent with the nature of the organization the Bishop of Fribourg was establishing — not a Maryknoll-like society, but a pious union.

          In 1975, however, before the six-year experimental period expired, the Bishop of Fribourg withdrew his approval of SSPX.

          At the time there was a great deal of debate over whether the Bishop of Fribourg followed the correct procedures. Archbishop Lefebvre subsequently launched various canonical appeals. But the appropriate Vatican congregations and Paul VI himself upheld the suppression.

          If, like SSPX, you maintain the Paul VI was indeed a true pope, he was the final court of appeal and had the right and the power to declare the Society suppressed.

          With that the few obligations set forth in the 1970 Statutes would have lost their power to bind members of the Society. Roma locuta est. Causa finita est.

          Time up. Game over. End of story.

          Despite this, in 1976 the SSPX General Chapter adopted a new set of Statutes. These were not much longer or more detailed than the 1970 version. (The “television” stayed, the concelebration was dropped.)

          The 1976 Statutes, needless to say, did not receive the approvals from the diocesan bishops that canon law would have required to make them valid and binding for the members of the organization. Without such approvals, the 1976 Statutes were canonically null.

          It is therefore absurd for Fr. Scott to claim that priests who leave SSPX commit sin. The organization was suppressed, the statutes it subsequently adopted were invalid, and its superiors have no canonical or moral power to bind anyone to anything.

     

    3.   “Engagement” Equals “Vow”? It is ridiculous for Fr. Scott to equate "engagement" in the SSPX with the public vows made by members of a religious order. Canon 1308 says that only a vow “received in the name of the Church by a legitimate ecclesiastical superior” is a public vow. Without this, a vow is considered private — no matter how many people are present when you make it.

          By no stretch of the imagination could one say that the “engagements” of SSPX members are received by a “legitimate ecclesiastical superior.”

          And where did Fr. Scott get this notion of equating an “engagement” to a public vow anyway? In Naz’s seven-volume Dictionary of Canon Law, you will not even find an entry for this term. How could its non-observance turn the disengaged into the equivalent of adulterers?

          By the mid-1980s, there were about fifty priests who had made engagements in SSPX and then left. How many are there by now? 600? “Spiritual adulterers” all?

     

    4.   A Simple Enrollment. The actual engagement formula used by the SSPX when I joined was "I N.N. give my name into the Fraternity of St. Pius X.”

          This language is merely an enrollment, and was completely consistent with the nature of a pious union: “I give my name” — call me for help teaching that CCD First Communion Class, put me on your list for collecting clothes and working in the St. Vincent de Paul soup kitchen.

          Easy in, easy out — like joining the Sacred Heart Auto League.

     

    5.   Rules, Rights, Obligations. A real vow or promise in a canonically approved religious institute, however, mentions the rule and constitutions by which you agree to be bound — and these are usually several hundred pages long. All these carefully written laws and regulations prevent religious institutes from becoming dictatorships, because they circuмscribe very carefully the powers of the superiors, limit their terms, and protect the individual subject’s rights.

          Before I entered SSPX, I belonged to a real religious order, the Cistercians. The obligations I assumed with my vows were absolutely clear — set forth in detail and at great length in the Rule of St. Benedict, the General Constitution of the Order, the Constitutions of the Congregation of Zirc, and other lesser statutes. So too, were my rights as a member (right down to the daily tobacco allowance) and the obligations of my superiors to respect those rights.

          SSPX has nothing at all like this. In the practical order, all power resides in the Superior General — like some sort of ecclesiastical Idi Amin, minus the man-eating crocodiles.

          Get on the wrong side of the powers-that-be in SSPX — by any independent thinking, say, or by adhering to some theological principle that contradicts the Society’s party line du jour — and it’s malaria shots, a white cassock, and the one-way ticket to Mumbai for you, Monsieur l’abbé.

     

    6. Imposing Oaths and Declarations. Finally, a canonically non-existent organization has no power to impose canonical or moral obligations on its members based on the canonical Oath of Fidelity.

          And not even the 850-year-old religious order in which I professed vows would have presumed, like SSPX, to impose on me a “declaration of fidelity” to its “positions” as a condition for ordination. The only “positions” members of the Order were required to accept were the teachings of the Church.

    * * * * *

          So, from beginning to end, each “obligation” that Fr. Scott has used to condemn priests who left SSPX is pure invention — the product of SSPX’s creation myth.

          The concepts I employed above to deal with Fr. Scott’s fantastic claims can be found even in the most dumbed-down vernacular canon law manuals. Doesn’t anyone in SSPX ever do any research?

          And this brings up a larger question: Members of SSPX like Fr. Scott keep on repeating the same old tall tales and ignorant arguments — about the Society’s foundation, the “illegal” promulgation of New Mass, the “canonized” Tridentine Mass, the “non-obligatory” character of Vatican II, the pope as “bad dad,” out-of-context and distorted “resistance” quotes, “operation survival,” “illegal” excommunications, etc. — long after such notions have been repeatedly debunked with quotes from canonists, theologians, historians and popes.

          It is perhaps for this reason that a cardinal once sarcastically dismissed the Society of St. Pius X as “Port-Royal sans intelligence” — Jansenism without the brains.

          You would think that an organization that professes dedication to preserving Catholic doctrine would at least occasionally jettison positions that are shown to be irreconcilable with principles of theology and canon law.

          But no. In the nearly forty years of the Society’s existence, despite all the priests it has ordained and all the resources at its disposal throughout the world, this never seems to have happened. The Society’s “positions” are still the same, stagnant theological swamp — a huge protected wetlands where no new development is ever permitted and where the same decrepit creatures forever roam in the dark.

          Don your hip boots, all ye who enter there!

    (Internet, 23 August 2006)
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    Offline AJNC

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 09:40:46 PM »
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  • Taken from another thread:


    02/ 2/2013 Vatican Insider www.vaticaninsider.lastampa.it
    “Lefebvrians are suspended a divinis: they can’t celebrate mass in the Catholic Church”

    The Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva and Freiburg, Charles Morerod, has signed a decree forbidding SSPX priests to use chapels in his diocese

    ANDREA TORNIELLI
    vatican city

    The stance he has taken is significant and indicative: the Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva and Freiburg Charles Morerod – also a Dominican theologian, Rector of Angelicuм, Secretary of the International Theological Commission and member of the delegation representing the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in the Church’s talks with the Society of St. Pius X (SSXP) – has published a decree forbidding Lefebvrian priests to celebrate mass in churches and chapels in his diocese. He also stressed that the Fraternity’s priests are suspended “a divinis”.

    The docuмent which was signed last 20 January regards “the admission of other religions, denominations or religious groups, such as the SSXP and groups of “independent theologians”, to Roman Catholic churches and chapels.” In the docuмent, Mgr. Morerod, a prelate whom Benedict XVI knows well, explains that if non Christian religious communities ask to use a Catholic church the answer will be no. In as far as Christian communities and denominations go, on the other hand, the bishops said that based on the indications of the Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecuмenism of 1993, “permission for placing churches and chapels at the disposal of communities of other Christian confessions may be granted for reasons of pastoral need. If the aforementioned pastoral need presents itself, Catholic churches and chapels can only be placed at the disposal of Catholic-Christian, Evangelical-Reformed, Lutheran, Orthodox, and Anglican communities.”

    According to the decree, SSPX priests do not fall into these categories. Morerod dedicates three brief paragraphs to the Lefebvrians, recalling, above all, that “the excommunication declared regarding the bishops of the Society on June 30, 1988, was lifted by a decree of the Congregation for Bishops, of January 21, 2009.” The docuмent then quotes a letter dated 10 March 2009 and sent to Benedict XVI to bishops across the world in the aftermath of the Williamson scandal: "The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church" [suspensio a divinis]. Due to the aforementioned reasons, - the decree goes on to say -  it is forbidden to the priests of the Society of Saint Pius X to use the Catholic churches and chapels for all priestly service, in particular for the dispensation of the sacraments.”


    Offline sspxbvm

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 06:23:46 AM »
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  •  
      If Father Hewko wants to be invalidly "removed" from the SSPX his best bet would be to go back to where the SSPX wants him and CONTINUE to condemn the agreement with Apostate Rome. They tell him to shut up. He refuses. ....By leaving and opening or joining a self appointed priory he gives them a valid reason to expel him. Fathers Chazal & Pfeiffer were expelled because of the same reason....they gave the neo-SSPX something to latch on to. We still respect them because they are trying to do the right thing.

      If he is invalidly expelled then,sure, you have to go somewhere--go to Kentucky.  

      Sorry, Neil, haven't had much time for "Cathinfo" lately. I did peek on a couple of days ago and saw you posted this. Had to sneak on real fast and see if I could read/answer in a few minutes. I will try to check again if there are any responses.

      Also, Bishop Williamson went about it the right way. He was "expelled" for CONTINUING to speak while being told to shut up. This is what the Fathers should also been doing/should have done. I think I said that already. Let's not jump to rash conclusions!

      God bless.


    Offline sspxbvm

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    Whether the KY Priory is Canonically Erected - why should we ask?
    « Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 06:49:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: sspxbvm
     
      If Father Hewko wants to be invalidly "removed" from the SSPX his best bet would be to go back to where the SSPX wants him and CONTINUE to condemn the agreement with Apostate Rome. They tell him to shut up. He refuses. ....By leaving and opening or joining a self appointed priory he gives them a valid reason to expel him. Fathers Chazal & Pfeiffer were expelled because of the same reason....they gave the neo-SSPX something to latch on to. We still respect them because they are trying to do the right thing.

      If he is invalidly expelled then,sure, you have to go somewhere--go to Kentucky.  

      Sorry, Neil, haven't had much time for "Cathinfo" lately. I did peek on a couple of days ago and saw you posted this. Had to sneak on real fast and see if I could read/answer in a few minutes. I will try to check again if there are any responses.

      Also, Bishop Williamson went about it the right way. He was "expelled" for CONTINUING to speak while being told to shut up. This is what the Fathers should also been doing/should have done. I think I said that already. Let's not jump to rash conclusions!

      God bless.


      Continuation: Remember, Bishop Williamson is the first son, first choice of Archbishop Lefebvre. The Archbishop lives on in a way through Bishop Williamson. We should follow his lead (after close observation and consideration.....anybody can fall). The proof that will show his inching closer to sanctity would be if he can continue to listen to his conscience on the matter of consecrating bishops or if he will succuмb to pressures. ...We'll see. Of couse, if he consecrates it may be because he believes it is time because of people who request it. Not people demanding it. No.