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Author Topic: Where are the SSJ members today?  (Read 8055 times)

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Offline IusSemper

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Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2018, 03:02:25 PM »
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    • Incidentally, if Fullerton had no inclinations similar to his colleagues, Urrutigoity and Ensey, why did he remain with that institute until it literally was dismantled to accusations about abusing young men enticed with alcohol from St. Gregory's over the period of time the SSJ served as chaplains at that school?

    It would have been impossible to not notice the aberrations that were going on.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #16 on: November 01, 2018, 03:12:14 PM »
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    • Not sure of the precise timing vis-a-vis Father Fullerton, whether he stayed too long and, if so, why.  I'm just stating a fact that, unlike with the others, I noticed no overt signs of effeminacy or other traits that the rest of them had in spades.  To my knowledge, he was not formally charged with anything.
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    Offline IusSemper

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #17 on: November 01, 2018, 03:25:40 PM »
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    • Persons who are male ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are not at all necessarily 'effeminate'.

    Incidentally, you might look up the photos online of Marines from San Diego who were (I do not not know if this policy still prevails) permitted to march in the 'gαy Pride Parade' there in their uniforms.

    So, even Marines have ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs among their ranks, apparently.


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #18 on: November 01, 2018, 03:45:48 PM »
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    • I never said we could rule it out, just made mention of the fact that he stood out with regard to his lack of overt behavioral mannerisms that are dead giveaway for most ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ men.  Most of those guys registered in the upper quadrant of the so-called "gαydar", whereas Father Fullerton did not register at all to me.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #19 on: November 01, 2018, 03:49:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: IusSemper on November 01, 2018, 03:25:40 PM
    Persons who are male ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are not at all necessarily 'effeminate'.

    Incidentally, you might look up the photos online of Marines from San Diego who were (I do not not know if this policy still prevails) permitted to march in the 'gαy Pride Parade' there in their uniforms.

    So, even Marines have ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs among their ranks, apparently.

    At the same time, however, the mere presence of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marines at Pendleton, the largest US Marine facility, does not necessarily mean anything vis-a-vis Fullerton either.  Is every marine at Pendleton gαy?
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    Offline IusSemper

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 04:13:59 PM »
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    • Certainly, I agree that not all are.  But some are and they are assuredly masculine in overall appearance and diligent about their physical shape.

    But the main point I would like to again emphasize is that one should ignore the statement that Fullerton was ever alleged or much less charged with physically assaulting anyone.

    I wrote that post very early this morning to respond to the question about 'whatever happened to the members of the SSJ?'  Since Daniel Fullerton was not mentioned, I merely wished to indicate that he did remain with the SSJ to its end in the Scranton diocese and that he still has an ecclesial role.

    So, let me reiterate that the Moderator was requested many hours ago, (in fact, almost immediately after I posted that initial statement) to remove it in its entirety so that I might revise it.

    Unfortunately, being new to the site I did not realize that one is offered only a 'Preview' of postings but NO edit function for a brief period after writing a post, something which is rather common on other sites.

    Regardless, I would ask you as a point of honor to consider what I have said, along with what I have retracted.  The central point was to merely indicate that one prominent member of the SSJ who had been unmentioned was still around.

    Thank you.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #21 on: November 02, 2018, 11:02:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 01, 2018, 03:12:14 PM
    Not sure of the precise timing vis-a-vis Father Fullerton, whether he stayed too long and, if so, why. 
    I'm guessing it would have been, canonically speaking, easy to leave the SSJ, but less so the diocese. In the ordinary structure of the Church, priests are connected to a diocese (incardinated) and cannot just leave on a whim. 

    When the SSJ was suppressed, all its members were priests of the diocese until and unless properly transferred elsewhere. It appears that Fr. Fullerton transferred to the the military ordinariate (the US diocese for the military). The FSSP could have also been an option.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #22 on: November 02, 2018, 11:19:28 AM »
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    • Yes, in all the proceedings, the only things alleged of Father Fullerton were --

    1) one second-hand statement that he had no problem with the boys skinnydipping at some camp run by Urrutigoity.

    and

    2) "cussing out" someone who had certain accusations against Father Urrutigoity

    With everything going on, I'm guessing it would have come out if he had been an actual participant in such activity.  Urrutigoity was well known for snookering and manipulating people.  He could have had him fooled, much like he fooled Bishop Williamson, into thinking that the poor guy was just being unjustly persecuted.  Until something comes out, only God knows.

    Interesting story.  Just before Father Urrutigoity's last year at seminary, I left STAS to become a sedevacantist.  Bishop Williamson had me corresponding with Father Urrutigoity, as the latter sought to win me back.  Father U had sought to induct me into his click, but I didn't want to have anything to do with them.  He took an interest in winning me back after I left.  So we exchanged some theological letters.  I went to his ordination the following June, and he told me that he had offered his first Mass for me.  Later someone told me that he told him the same thing, that he had offered his first Mass for someone else.  He knew what to say to try winning people over.

    Father U was a liturgical experimenter.  He tried to introduce "troped" Kyries into the Mass ... even though these had been banned after the Council of Trent.  At one point he wanted women in the seminary choir area to sing.  I objected to the powers that be, and Father U was overruled.  I don't think he liked my interference.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #23 on: November 02, 2018, 11:42:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 02, 2018, 11:19:28 AM
    "troped" Kyries into the Mass ... even though these had been banned after the Council of Trent.  
    I searched the sessions of the council of Trent and cannot find anything about this.

    I am aware there was something from around that time (not sure if specifically from the council) requiring the Gloria be said as written, which stopped a trope to our Lady that added some lines to the Gloria.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 12:13:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on November 02, 2018, 11:42:33 AM
    I searched the sessions of the council of Trent and cannot find anything about this.

    I am aware there was something from around that time (not sure if specifically from the council) requiring the Gloria be said as written, which stopped a trope to our Lady that added some lines to the Gloria.

    That was in one of those committees that spun off as a result of Trent ... like the one that gave us the Roman Catechism.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #25 on: November 02, 2018, 01:32:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 02, 2018, 12:13:14 PM
    That was in one of those committees that spun off as a result of Trent ... like the one that gave us the Roman Catechism.
    I would like to know specifically. The kyries are identified in the Liber Usualis by the name of a trope common for that kyrie.
    I found this at a blog on church music:
    Quote
    The Missal of the Roman Curia, which essentially became the Tridentine Missal of 1570, had no tropes, which is hardly surprising: Roman curial officials must not have been particularly interested in additions to the liturgy that might prolong the Mass, and indeed their missal was designed for the celebration of low Masses, hardly an environment favourable for troping. As a result, books published to provide the music for liturgical celebrations according to or based on the Tridentine model contained few if any tropes. At no point does it seem that tropes were expressly prohibited, except for one rubric contained in the 1570 Roman Missal (and not in the 1464 Missal) stating Sic dicitur Gloria in excelsis etiam in missis beatę Marię, which might indicate an effort to forbid the popular Marian tropes on the Gloria.

    https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/01/01/on-tropes/
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 02:52:58 PM »
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    • I don't have the citation.  Yes, the Kyries might be named shorthand for tropes, but the tropes themselves were eliminated.  They were not missing from the 1570 Missal because they were "too long", as this author speculates, but because they were deemed inappropriate by the commission which put together the Missal.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 03:01:47 PM »
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    • From the Harvard Dictionary of Music:

    "All the tropes were abolished by the Council of Trent.  Their traces survive, however, in the present-day names of many Kyries and the corresponding Mass Ordinaries."
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 09:44:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 02, 2018, 03:01:47 PM
    From the Harvard Dictionary of Music:

    "All the tropes were abolished by the Council of Trent.  Their traces survive, however, in the present-day names of many Kyries and the corresponding Mass Ordinaries."
    We both know that tropes were removed from the liturgical texts after Trent and would not be said by the priest at Mass. That's not exactly the same as saying they are or were forbidden to ever be sung during the liturgy on occasion.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
    « Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 10:48:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on November 02, 2018, 09:44:14 PM
    We both know that tropes were removed from the liturgical texts after Trent and would not be said by the priest at Mass. That's not exactly the same as saying they are or were forbidden to ever be sung during the liturgy on occasion.

    There are notes in the Tridentine rubrics which indicate that the music must be performed exactly as contained therein, and there are proceedings out there from the commissions which indicate their intent to eliminate them.  That was the entire point behind the Tridentine Missal.  Trent did not invent a New Mass.  Trent was trying to standardize a common Mass and eliminate all the popular variants that had invaded the Mass and caused there to be hundreds of variations of the Latin Rite Mass out there ... including the hundreds of "trope" variations in the chant.
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