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Author Topic: When is it ok to attend the NO  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 11:22:05 AM »
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  • So, I think if you say "just go to the wake", you understand the general reason one might attend ... the same reason you'd go to the wake, to offer condolences to the family, and just to be there.

    Yes, sometimes nobody would notice if you went to the wake and then no-showed for the funeral, but if it's a closer family member, they likely would, and then sometimes there isn't a formal wake and they just do it together.  So it's probably  hit-or-miss.

    If it was a larger affair and nobody would notice whether I was even there, or not ... I'd skip.  In a smaller affair, especially of close family, where they would notice ... I'd probably show up, but not actively participate.  Touch and go.  As with all things, an exercise of prudence depending on the circuмstances.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 11:24:32 AM »
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  • Baptisms, funerals, or weddings only.  I wouldn't receive communion.
    I agree with you and also agree with Worlds Away. We have NO family members who marry, baptise their children and die. We go to their weddings, baptisms and funerals. If we were to stay away, and explain why, they would not understand. They would just be angry. When necessary to attend to keep peace in the family, we do not participate, we offer to take the crying baby outside, we arrive late, leave early.We continue to pray for their conversion.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 11:30:39 AM »
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  • Yes, well said.

    Bp. Williamson had the rare quality of speaking the unvarnished truth, but he also cared very much for souls, which is a high form of charity. This sort of charity is a rare thing in the world of tradition. He erred a little too much at times on the side of charity, but I'd rather see that than a lack of charity often seen in Tradition. I see the same sort of charity in Fr. Chazal, though he differs somewhat in his stances from the stances of +W.
    Hi Meg, glad to see you again! Hope all is well with you!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 11:34:50 AM »
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  • Never understood the point of passive attendance.  You're literally there because...someone asked you to be?  And you go, even though you 100% disagree with it?  This is the definition of a wimp with no backbone.  (not talking about you, in particular, but the idea).  "Passive attendance" is just peer pressure.  Why not just sit in your car?

    If y'all truly understood/believed that the new mass was a heresy, a fake mass, a sacrilege, an anti-Trent, anti-Catholic "service" (however you want to describe it), why would you go at all?  Why couldn't you attend an abortion procedure, with a friend who "needs your support"?  It's just "passive attendance", right?

    If you cater to people who are in error (i.e. new mass goers), then they'll never change.  If you don't take a stand and say "No, i'm no going to that heretical fake mass!" then your family members are never going to WAKE UP and SAVE THEIR SOULS.  As it is, if you go and "passively attend" you are sending the message that the new mass "isn't that bad, it's just a preference."  Because logically, if it WAS THAT BAD (i.e. an abortion clinic) then you wouldn't go.  But if you think that passive attendance is allowable, then you truly don't grasp the evilness and sinfulness of the new mass.
    Because there is the 4th Commandment that must be honored and would not be violated through rare, passive attendance.  To avoid your parents funeral or godchildren's own baptisms is the greater sin in this case.  I won't be persuaded otherwise.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 11:55:20 AM »
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  • Some considerations about Bishop Williamson's famous (and single) approval of Novus Ordo Mass attendance:

    Although the other Resistance bishops would not go along with his statement, and although +W himself said in a later interview that he had gone too far, it has been noted that Archbishop Lefebvre was known to have given a similar approval in private.

    That's funny, because +W's "approval" was also directed to a particular, emotional woman who OBVIOUSLY didn't "get it". She was not a Trad.

    The consensus about this infamous exchange (which I was present at, BTW -- I witnessed the whole exchange in 4K) is that +W was imprudent for giving such one-off, personal advice to a woman in a public setting -- not just public, but uber-public, as it was being recorded for posting on the Internet. That imprudence is what caused so much trouble for the Bishop.

    When should Trads go to the Novus Ordo? Never. It's dangerous to the Faith, and it's not permissible to place your soul in such danger. BUT -- what if you don't understand the danger? You're ignorant, you don't "get it"? You can't force someone's conscience to operate according to the lights and understanding that YOU have, but they don't.

    This is a fundamental point that Trads have to understand. If you don't understand it, or don't get it, then you fall into the error of believing that all Novus Ordo attendees are malicious heretics, evil, mentally retarded, etc. NO! Some of them might be. But all you can be CERTAIN about is that each Novus Ordo Catholic hasn't figured IT out yet. The bad-willed ones will always be with us. But as for those of good will: Once they learn, once they understand, once the light bulb goes off, THEN they will join you in the lifeboats of Tradition and will never look back. But they have to spiritually survive until that point. And in their ignorant mind, that involves attending the Novus Ordo. Maybe they're seeking more reverent Masses, etc. They slowly wake up to one truth at a time. It's a process. That's where their mind is at. Grace is working on them. Be patient.

    We should pray that more and more Catholics enter this blessed track, this path to salvation.

    Never forget that Novus Ordo Catholics have an excuse that no other false Church has. When N.O. Catholics go to Mass on Sunday (or Saturday night), their Church is clearly labeled as a "Catholic Church" which any research will tell you is the Church going back 2,000 years to Christ himself. NO OTHER HERETIC, NO SCHISMATIC can rely on that excuse.

    When you ask a man on the street to direct you to the Catholic Church, he will point you to a Conciliar Church. Everyone just knows what is accepted as "The Catholic Church". N.O. Catholics RIGHTLY believe that is the safest place to be. The problem is: they aren't aware of the Crisis, and that the Modernists took over the visible Church structures in the 1960s, the details about Vatican II, etc. But their heart and their will VERY WELL MIGHT BE in the right place. We must therefore give each one of them the benefit of the doubt, until the contrary is proven by their attitudes, behavior, willful rejection of Catholic dogmas, etc.
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    Offline Justinian

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 12:04:56 PM »
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  • I agree with you and also agree with Worlds Away. We have NO family members who marry, baptise their children and die. We go to their weddings, baptisms and funerals. If we were to stay away, and explain why, they would not understand. They would just be angry. When necessary to attend to keep peace in the family, we do not participate, we offer to take the crying baby outside, we arrive late, leave early.We continue to pray for their conversion.
    I forgot to add YES of COURSE go to the NO if it is a family or close friend sacrament such as marriage or baptism. I thought this was obvious as family would just think you’d fallen out with them. I did go to a very odd NO in Ireland a few years ago where a relative had died and a potato (yes a potato) was put on a table near the altar as a ‘symbol of his life’ because he was a farmer. I did kind of laugh and be sad at the same time and he himself would have thought this was insane.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 12:26:57 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson didn’t want people to lose their souls.  He truly cared about people and their souls. 

    Many Catholics have left the Novus Ordo for atheism, satanism, luciferian, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, etc.  No body wants to be responsible for someone losing their soul and head to hell. 

    When you read the Bible and pray,  God will lead you. 
    I guess I have to question if people who faithfully attend the novus ordo; I’m not talking about CINO or those who have their kids baptized, make first communions, get married, go on Easter and Christmas out of custom; are departing what they believe is the mass and the Catholic Faith to “convert” to atheism, satanism, Lucifer worship, and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ as a religion?  I know of people who leave when they discover tradition, people who leave for Protestantism, usually of the conservative variety because their teachings are closer to what Rome currently promotes, often in connection with marriage. I know of no one who regularly attends the novus ordo who has left because they’ve exchanged their belief in Christ for worship of the devil. There’s are novus ordo Catholics who are Masons, usually low level, for business reasons, to be social, or because they are ignorant of the Church’s stand on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and why. What, for example, is wrong with collecting food for the poor? On the lower levels, it has meetings where one shows up, eats a meal, goes over the local lodge’s budget, plans a public service event, socializes with the guys, and goes home. In return for showing up once a month, he can be considered for a job, a promotion on the job, or in the union. I’m not saying it’s okay for Catholics to join the Masons, but I have never heard of anyone leaving the novus ordo for the purpose of becoming a Freemason. What IS likely is that a person who’s grown up knowing nothing but the novus ordo does not receive the graces he should. He gets tired or turned off by the DEI, the gospel according to Barney the purple dinosaur, “God luvs you, God luvs me, we’re a happy fam-a-ly. With a great big hug and sign of peace from me to you, Won’t you say you luv me, too?” Nobody but the dying off less intelligent Baby Boomers keep trying the hippie stuff—-and they can’t or won’t admit it doesn’t work!  Where do these people go? A few to conservative Protestants, a few to Orthodoxy, men favor the latter because it’s less reliant upon emotion compared with evangelical Protestantism. Plus, the Orthodox are schismatic whereas the Protestant sects are heretical. The only way to switch and still receive real Grace from the Mass for the properly disposed is to switch to an Eastern rite that maintains the Roman dogma and hierarchy. They need to be carefully vetted because many in the US and Canada have switched to their own versions of the novus ordo, where the liturgy no longer conveys Christ’s Sacrifice.
    Most people leave the novus ordo gradually as it becomes more and more irrelevant to spiritual life. They join the majority of younger Americans who identify themselves as “nones,” people having no religion. They just believe in being good people, nice, not heinous criminals, just decent. 
    Reading the Bible and praying are good, but absent the Grace of valid (Catholic) Baptism, they do not save souls.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 12:44:30 PM »
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  • So, I think if you say "just go to the wake", you understand the general reason one might attend ... the same reason you'd go to the wake, to offer condolences to the family, and just to be there.
    The reasons are the same, but the consequences different.  Going to a wake isn't a religious service.  Going to a fake mass, you're "passively" witnessing a sacrilege and a mockery of God.

    Quote
    In a smaller affair, especially of close family, where they would notice ... I'd probably show up, but not actively participate.  Touch and go.  As with all things, an exercise of prudence depending on the circuмstances.
    It may be "natural" prudence to be "nice" to family members.  But supernatural prudence would mean you be nice to God (i.e. avoid liturgical blasphemies).



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 12:48:06 PM »
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  • Because there is the 4th Commandment that must be honored and would not be violated through rare, passive attendance.  To avoid your parents funeral or godchildren's own baptisms is the greater sin in this case.  I won't be persuaded otherwise.
    BS.  The PRIMARY commandment is the first one...to love God with your whole strength, mind and body.  And also (in Scripture) "If anyone love Father, or Mother or sister or brother more than Me, he is not worthy of Me."

    First Commandment - I am the Lord thy God.  I will not have strange gods before Me.

    The new mass is an ABOMINATION which worships a false, new-age, non-catholic, ecuмenical, heretical "god".  To attend such, is to violate the 1st commandment (among many other church laws).

    1st > 4th.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 12:49:59 PM »
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  • I agree with you and also agree with Worlds Away. We have NO family members who marry, baptise their children and die. We go to their weddings, baptisms and funerals. If we were to stay away, and explain why, they would not understand. They would just be angry. 
    Irreligious people often get angry when they don't get their way.  That's their problem.

    Quote
    When necessary to attend to keep peace in the family, we do not participate, we offer to take the crying baby outside, we arrive late, leave early.We continue to pray for their conversion.
    Keeping peace with God > keeping peace with family.

    You can't sin in order to make family "happy".  This is compromise.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 12:52:56 PM »
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  • In the event of being morally unable, not even passively, to attend a loved one’s funeral, be it novus ordo or something else, you can always have a Mass said for them privately. Make the situation known to the priest. You needn’t tell the family or people who gave the immoral or blasphemous service. Our Lady distributes the graces of the Mass justly. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 12:54:48 PM »
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  • I forgot to add YES of COURSE go to the NO if it is a family or close friend sacrament such as marriage or baptism. I thought this was obvious as family would just think you’d fallen out with them. I did go to a very odd NO in Ireland a few years ago where a relative had died and a potato (yes a potato) was put on a table near the altar as a ‘symbol of his life’ because he was a farmer. I did kind of laugh and be sad at the same time and he himself would have thought this was insane.
    This is a pathetic sacrilege and a mockery of the Faith and the Mass.  I hope it was worth it to you

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 12:58:22 PM »
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  • CORRECTION!  The word “CONSERVATIVE VARIETY” should have read “LIBERAL VARIETY” in my long post. Sorry! 

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 01:19:39 PM »
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  • Agree. Nothing funny about putting a vegetable beside the altar during Mass. You shouldn’t put a potato beside the altar or in the sanctuary at all!  The altar represents the Old Testament altar of sacrifice which, in the New Testament IS the Cross on which Our SACRIFICE IS Offered to the Fathet, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, DIVINITY. Would you, if you could get in a time machine and go to Calvary, place a potato beside Jesus’s Feet?  If not, neither should a potato be placed next to the altar, in view of Christ, the Father, Mary, and all the Holy Angels, just because the deceased was a farmer!
    Suppose he pumped out sewers for a living? Or performed colonoscopies?
    Even if the deceased did a socially pleasant job, maybe made wedding cakes?  Should there be a wedding cake on a small table beside the altar? 
    I just pray the priest and relatives were truly ignorant. 

    If the deceased farmer had a sense of humor, if there was a wake or after the funeral reception at a location other than the Church or consecrated property, then fine. Add the potato to a display of memorial items, preferably after the funeral and the body is buried, when people share their memories of the person. Depending upon the circuмstances of the death and the culture of the people, comic relief can indeed be beneficial and appropriate. At an Irish funeral reception, the potato in memory of the gentleman was funny, just not during the mass, in the sanctuary, beside the altar! No! 
    Think about it!
    It’s like Francis putting the beach ball and football on the altar!  
    (The Pacha Mama was worse because it is a recognizable pagan idol whereas potatoes, beach balls, footballs are generally not worshipped in the formal sense.)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: When is it ok to attend the NO
    « Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 02:14:42 PM »
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  • I like this 8 minute sermon (attached) by Fr. Wathen as regards this issue. He pulls no punches.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse