Author Topic: Whats So Exemplary About France SSPXers? (Read 4376 times)

bowler · « **on:** December 17, 2012, 11:50:41 AM »

I was thinking about the changes to the mass cutoms that the individual French priests have introduced to the USA and other English speaking countries, the Dialogue Low mass, (and every step towards it), the standing for the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei at High Mass, and other changes we've docuмented here. If these changes are so great, the French SSPXers must be something special to emulate, or else it is just the French priests imposing their preferences upon the English speaking countries for no other reason than it's what they are accustomed to.

So, what is so exemplary about French Catholics, what are the fruits of the dialogue low mass since the 1950's? From what I've heard the French SSPXers:

- SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change.
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass
- SSPX couples don't have many children (use birth control)
- SSPX men are not getting married
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass

In the USA we saw/see:

- SSPX women are submissive to their husbands and God
- SSPX women are do not wear pants, all where veils at mass
- SSPX couples have many children despite their poverty ( a sign of submission to God, truth, and a great sacrifice)
- SSPX men are getting married and taking on great responsibility
- 25% of Catholics go to mass in the USA

Comments ?

TKGS · « **Reply #1 on:** December 17, 2012, 01:59:57 PM »

If these observations are accurate (I don't know) it would be a sign to spurn just about everything French.

It seems to me that the French Revolution was, indeed, revolutionary. The revolution and its aftermath changed French culture in a profound way. France "fundamentally transformed" from a Catholic country to an anti-Catholic country and this tranformation was not simply in official government circles but within the fabric of the French citizenry and French culture. French customs, fashions, and ideas have not been worthy of emulation since 1796.

In any event, change, in these days of uncertainty, is not a good thing.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #2 on:** December 17, 2012, 02:24:36 PM »

Bowler a French priest at our chapel gave a sermon where he said young people weren't ready for marriage because of our society and that marriage had to be delayed.

Really they are extremely arrogant about imposing their bourgeois prejudices that have nothing to do with the Catholic Faith.

Father Chazal confirms what you say about the lack of piety and modesty and the social pressure being felt by mothers of large families within supposedly traditional chapels.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** December 17, 2012, 02:44:23 PM »

Quote from: bowler

I was thinking about the changes to the mass cutoms that the individual French priests have introduced to the USA and other English speaking countries, the Dialogue Low mass, (and every step towards it), the standing for the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei at High Mass, and other changes we've docuмented here. If these changes are so great, the French SSPXers must be something special to emulate, or else it is just the French priests imposing their preferences upon the English speaking countries for no other reason than it's what they are accustomed to.

So, what is so exemplary about French Catholics, what are the fruits of the dialogue low mass since the 1950's? From what I've heard the French SSPXers:

- SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change.
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass
- SSPX couples don't have many children (use birth control)
- SSPX men are not getting married
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass

In the USA we saw/see:

- SSPX women are submissive to their husbands and God
- SSPX women are do not wear pants, all where veils at mass
- SSPX couples have many children despite their poverty ( a sign of submission to God, truth, and a great sacrifice)
- SSPX men are getting married and taking on great responsibility
- 25% of Catholics go to mass in the USA

Comments ?

I wouldn't say people having less children, not attending Mass, women wearing pants, etc. is a fruit of attending the Dialogue Mass for years.

Such an assertion would be ludicrous.

When you and I talk about the fruits of the Novus Ordo, it actually makes sense -- because the Novus Ordo inherently is friendly to the modern world, is less sacred, neglects speaking of sacrifice, does away with practices of penance, etc. so the bad fruits we see ARE to be blamed on the Novus Ordo Mass and the post-Vatican II new religion.

What you observe about French Catholics could -- no, must -- be attributed elsewhere, rather than blaming it on their Dialogue Mass custom.

Reciting the servers responses in Latin for a Tridentine Mass will NOT destroy the Faith or morals. Not even after a hundred years. Sorry, bowler, that dog won't hunt.

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2012, 02:50:57 PM »

Quote from: bowler

- SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change.
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass
- SSPX couples don't have many children (use birth control)
- SSPX men are not getting married
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass

In the USA we saw/see:

- SSPX women are submissive to their husbands and God
- SSPX women are do not wear pants, all where veils at mass
- SSPX couples have many children despite their poverty ( a sign of submission to God, truth, and a great sacrifice)
- SSPX men are getting married and taking on great responsibility
- 25% of Catholics go to mass in the USA
Comments ?

Generalizing much?

Ask Telesphorus how ideal young American ladies in the SSPX are.

In my experience (about 9 years ago), I had better luck courting conservative traditional or Novus Ordo women than SSPX-attending women. I was a bit shocked, as the results were quite unexpected.

One SSPX woman I met was quite jaded about men, and had quite a "past".
Another was very feminist in her beliefs/practice. She was certainly not a good catch; I think I was just very lonely at the time and disoriented after being thrown back in "the world".

I actually found more good morals, traditional feminine beliefs/practice, sincerity (rather than hypocrisy), etc. among conservative Novus Ordo women. Your mileage may vary.

Incredulous · « **Reply #5 on:** December 17, 2012, 03:03:43 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: bowler

- SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change.
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass
- SSPX couples don't have many children (use birth control)
- SSPX men are not getting married
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass

In the USA we saw/see:

- SSPX women are submissive to their husbands and God
- SSPX women are do not wear pants, all where veils at mass
- SSPX couples have many children despite their poverty ( a sign of submission to God, truth, and a great sacrifice)
- SSPX men are getting married and taking on great responsibility
- 25% of Catholics go to mass in the USA
Comments ?

Generalizing much?

Ask Telesphorus how ideal young American ladies in the SSPX are.

In my experience (about 9 years ago), I had better luck courting conservative traditional or Novus Ordo women than SSPX-attending women. I was a bit shocked, as the results were quite unexpected.

One SSPX woman I met was quite jaded about men, and had quite a "past".
Another was very feminist in her beliefs/practice. She was certainly not a good catch; I think I was just very lonely at the time and disoriented after being thrown back in "the world".

I actually found more good morals, traditional feminine beliefs/practice, sincerity (rather than hypocrisy), etc. among conservative Novus Ordo women. Your mileage may vary.

Perhaps the trad man's strategy for finding a good wife in the modern world is to:

1. Pray about it.

2.. Do your research and search for a young lady with a good heart.

3. Have the marriage expediently (before she get's influenced by the world).

Wessex · « **Reply #6 on:** December 17, 2012, 03:04:56 PM »

What you are saying is that French modern customs are being imposed on traditionalists elsewhere. Perhaps this is the price being paid for attaching oneself to an organisation rooted in France that was seeking to preserve a Catholic culture more than the faith. The reverse is the case in Anglo-Saxon countries with little Catholic culture but with some pockets of strong Catholic belief. If the SSPX seminaries are churning out predominantly French-speaking priests coming from liberal Catholic communities, it will be harder for the Society as a whole to resist the effects of this.

Matthew · « **Reply #7 on:** December 17, 2012, 03:12:00 PM »

Bowler's argument is fallacious.

Specifically, the fallacy "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc."

"After this, therefore because of this."

If your child walked into the room and immediately the phone rang, you shouldn't think that the phone rang BECAUSE your child walked into the room.

Such is called a "coincidence".

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #8 on:** December 17, 2012, 03:22:28 PM »

Bowler, there are also quite a few liberal-minded people SSPXers in the US, most of whom have never even attended a Dialogue Mass. The argument you present is not logical.

If an SSPXer is liberal-minded, I doubt it's because they stand during the Sanctus.

I say this as someone who is not even a proponent of the Dialogue Mass, mind you. I am simply saying you can't point to the Dialogue Mass as the reason there are liberal parishoners in the SSPX.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #9 on:** December 17, 2012, 03:26:52 PM »

Quote from: Wessex

an organisation rooted in France that was seeking to preserve a Catholic culture more than the faith.

That's not what Archbishop Lefebvre was about.

However, it may well be true that much of the financial support for the SSPX came from those less concerned about doctrinal purity and more concerned with maintaining a kind of social order in their families and church community.

bowler · « **Reply #10 on:** December 17, 2012, 04:41:18 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: bowler

- SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change.
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass
- SSPX couples don't have many children (use birth control)
- SSPX men are not getting married
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass

In the USA we saw/see:

- SSPX women are submissive to their husbands and God
- SSPX women are do not wear pants, all where veils at mass
- SSPX couples have many children despite their poverty ( a sign of submission to God, truth, and a great sacrifice)
- SSPX men are getting married and taking on great responsibility
- 25% of Catholics go to mass in the USA
Comments ?

Generalizing much?

Ask Telesphorus how ideal young American ladies in the SSPX are.

In my experience (about 9 years ago), I had better luck courting conservative traditional or Novus Ordo women than SSPX-attending women. I was a bit shocked, as the results were quite unexpected.

One SSPX woman I met was quite jaded about men, and had quite a "past".
Another was very feminist in her beliefs/practice. She was certainly not a good catch; I think I was just very lonely at the time and disoriented after being thrown back in "the world".

I actually found more good morals, traditional feminine beliefs/practice, sincerity (rather than hypocrisy), etc. among conservative Novus Ordo women. Your mileage may vary.

Your personal experiences likely stem more from the lack of SSPX girls versus the conservative novus ordo girls. In Texas there are likely 600 SSPXers in total, versus like 6 million other Catholics in the state.

What I wrote as far as France versus USA SSPXers still stands as true.

bowler · « **Reply #11 on:** December 17, 2012, 04:59:53 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Bowler, there are also quite a few liberal-minded people SSPXers in the US, most of whom have never even attended a Dialogue Mass. The argument you present is not logical.

If an SSPXer is liberal-minded, I doubt it's because they stand during the Sanctus.

I say this as someone who is not even a proponent of the Dialogue Mass, mind you. I am simply saying you can't point to the Dialogue Mass as the reason there are liberal parishoners in the SSPX.

What I'm saying is more in line what Wessex concluded.

Quote from: Wessex

What you are saying is that French modern customs are being imposed on traditionalists elsewhere. Perhaps this is the price being paid for attaching oneself to an organisation rooted in France that was seeking to preserve a Catholic culture more than the faith. The reverse is the case in Anglo-Saxon countries with little Catholic culture but with some pockets of strong Catholic belief. If the SSPX seminaries are churning out predominantly French-speaking priests coming from liberal Catholic communities, it will be harder for the Society as a whole to resist the effects of this.

If these changes are so great (any French changes to our customs), the French SSPXers must be something special to emulate....So, what is so exemplary about French Catholics? The list I made are the fruits of their liberal mindset, it is that mindest that caused them to embrace the dialogue low mass since the 1950's. The reason why they embrace these changes today is because they are still 1960's liberals, and have not learned from the experience.

It is not the dialogue mass that turned them into liberals, it was their liberal mindset that caused them to embrace the Dialogue mass and all of the 1960's mindset that followed:

SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change.
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass
- SSPX couples don't have many children (use birth control)
- SSPX men are not getting married
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass

The dialogue mass could only take hold in a liberal revolutionary society. Now they want to bring their liberal "tradtionalism" here.

"In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king."

In a country like France, where less than 5% of Catholics go to mass, an SSPXer that uses the dialogue mass (where women take drown out all of the answering of the priest and alter server), woman wear pants, women wear no veils, and families have few children, is a SAINT compared to the rest of the country. That however, only makes them one eyed. In the USA we still have two eyes.

ggreg · « **Reply #12 on:** December 17, 2012, 05:03:04 PM »

Have you ever been to France bowler?

Ever been on either of the Chartres Pilgrimages or attended mass at SSPX churches there?

I have. In fact I live closer to France than London and regularly visit the place. I have also lived in the USA and attend th SSPX in LA, Kansas, Montana, Idaho, Boston and New York on more than just a one off or casual basis.

I disagree with your assessment of French SSPX women. It is not the case.

bowler · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2012, 05:11:30 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Have you ever been to France bowler?

Ever been on either of the Chartres Pilgrimages or attended mass at SSPX churches there?

I have. In fact I live closer to France than London and regularly visit the place. I have also lived in the USA and attend th SSPX in LA, Kansas, Montana, Idaho, Boston and New York on more than just a one off or casual basis.

I disagree with your assessment of French SSPX women. It is not the case.

In what points do you disagree?

SSPX women are more feminist, very difficult to change. (told to me by French priests)
- SSPX women wear pants, no veils at mass (said many times here on CI, and by travelers to France)
- SSPX couples don't have many children, use birth control (told to me by French priests))
- SSPX men are not getting married (told to me by French priests)
- less than 5% of Catholics go to mass (verifiable statistic)

ggreg · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2012, 05:40:36 PM »

SSPX women in France are not more feminist in my experience. That simply isn't true. How would French priests know this? Have they dated and maintained close friendships with French and American SSPX women?

Do they take advantage of free higher education more often than their American counterparts who would end up with huge debt? Sure they do, but that hardly makes them feminists.

Chartres Pilgrimage is chock full of large families. 10, 11, 12 is not an unusual number over there. My sister in law is one of 14 and has 11 children herself. She is French and her two brothers are SSPX priests.

Other comments are useless as they don't relate to the SSPX specifically or are so vague as to be unverifiable.