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Author Topic: What would it take to resolve the crisis?  (Read 3212 times)

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Offline Markus

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Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2018, 11:28:55 PM »
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  • Simply, all you need is a true pope.
    How would a true pope be elected if the new rite of ordination is invalid, as most sedevacantists believe?


    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #16 on: October 18, 2018, 12:10:23 AM »
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  • How would a true pope be elected if the new rite of ordination is invalid, as most sedevacantists believe?
    (Which is one reason I included #9 in my list.)



    Offline trad123

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #17 on: October 18, 2018, 12:36:13 AM »
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  • Simply, all you need is a true pope.

    Blessed simplicity :laugh1:

    Plus, Fr. Raoul. Holy Simplicity (Kindle Locations 213-218 ). Sophia Institute Press. Kindle Edition.

    Quote
    Less well known is the good old doorkeeper of the College in Majorca, St. Alphonsus Rodriguez, who had been a merchant and was not uncultured, but whose simplicity seemed one of his most delightful characteristics. One day our Lady told him that she loved him. “Oh,” he retorted, “not as much as I love you!” On another occasion, when at recreation, he thought he heard his superior order him to go to India. At once he prepared to set off, and when the position was explained to him, and he was asked what he would have done if he could not find a ship ready to sail: “I should have gone into the water and not come ashore until I had proved that I could go no further.” 21

    (. . .)

    Footnote

    21 On another occasion, the conversation turned to swimming. He was asked, “Do you know how to swim?” “Why, yes.” And lying on a bench (others say on the ground), he proceeded to demonstrate with rhythmical movements of arms and legs.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #18 on: October 18, 2018, 04:00:51 AM »
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  • How would a true pope be elected if the new rite of ordination is invalid, as most sedevacantists believe?
    I really haven't considered the resolution too much as I believe that we should put all of our trust in God. He will resolve it when it is absolutely the right time, no more no less. With that said, here are a few of the scenarios on how we might obtain a true pope that I have envisioned:

    1) There could be valid Roman clergy who have kept the faith through the crisis. They could declare that the see vacant and elect a true pope.

    2) There must be some bishops still alive (most likely from the Eastern part of the Church) who still profess the true faith and could/would call a council and declare the see vacant and elect a true pope.

    3) There could be some conservative NO "cardinals" who could convert, profess the true faith, declare the see vacant, and then call a conclave to elect a true pope.

    4) I think that it is possible that if Mr. Bergoglio were to have a complete conversion and by this I mean 100%. He would have to explicitly reject all of the errors of Vatican II, ecuмenism, religious liberty, the NO mass, etc. He would then have to be conditionally ordained and consecrated and also demand that the clergy that are deemed to profess the true faith be conditionally ordained and consecrated. All of the modernist clergy would have to be physically removed from the Church's buildings and be denounced if they do not profess the true faith. 



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #19 on: October 18, 2018, 07:04:51 AM »
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  • Simply, all you need is a true pope.
    Right, a "true pope" will snap his fingers and that will be that? Do you mean to say that popes make people sin? (Rhetorical question, I expect no answer)

    The last 5 or 6 "true popes" have only served to make matters worse, so no, that's definitely not all you need.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #20 on: October 18, 2018, 04:55:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Markus
    How would a true pope be elected if the new rite of ordination is invalid, as most sedevacantists believe?
    I really haven't considered the resolution too much as I believe that we should put all of our trust in God. He will resolve it when it is absolutely the right time, no more no less.

     :applause:


    With that said, here are a few of the scenarios on how we might obtain a true pope that I have envisioned:

    1) There could be valid Roman clergy who have kept the faith through the crisis. They could declare that the see vacant and elect a true pope.

    There could be a flying spaghetti monster dwelling behind Venus.



    2) There must be some bishops still alive (most likely from the Eastern part of the Church) who still profess the true faith and could/would call a council and declare the see vacant and elect a true pope.

    All "bishops" known to claim to be bishops having apostolic authority profess to be part of the heretical conciliar sect. They are heretics, have no apostolic authority, and are no bishops.



    3) There could be some conservative NO "cardinals" who could convert, profess the true faith, declare the see vacant, and then call a conclave to elect a true pope.

    Let's pray that they convert. But a heretic does not gain or regain an office by conversion.


    4) I think that it is possible that if Mr. Bergoglio were to have a complete conversion and by this I mean 100%. He would have to explicitly reject all of the errors of Vatican II, ecuмenism, religious liberty, the NO mass, etc. He would then have to be conditionally ordained and consecrated and also demand that the clergy that are deemed to profess the true faith be conditionally ordained and consecrated. All of the modernist clergy would have to be physically removed from the Church's buildings and be denounced if they do not profess the true faith.

    Let's pray that Bergoglio converts. But a heretic does not gain or regain an office by conversion.

    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #21 on: October 18, 2018, 09:55:31 PM »
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  • Obviously extraordinary circuмstances call for extraordinary measures.  What follows might be one possible scenario.

    By a seeming miracle of grace the rules for appointing a new pope are changed allowing for an angel of God (as in accordance with some prophecy?) to come down and appoint a new one.  The new pope then commands all the prelates of the world to join him in the manner prescribed by the BVM (under pain of ipso facto excommunication) in consecrating Russia to her Immaculate Heart.  Even if only 1 bishop in the whole world joined him that should be enough.  It would be 100% compliance since the non-complying bishops would no longer be a "part of the equation."

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #22 on: October 19, 2018, 12:18:28 AM »
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  • Simply, all you need is a true pope.
    Quote from Stubborn:
    Quote
    Right, a "true pope" will snap his fingers and that will be that?

    Only an extraordinarily saintly pope would have a prayer of reversing the obdurate disobedience of the leaders of the Conciliar Church.  The current cardinals and bishops are largely products and messengers of a spirit of rebellion against the deposit of faith.  Their mass conversion would be in the order of the miraculous, such as only some of the traditional saints have been instruments of.  

    Yes, a pope faithful to Catholicism could issue 25+ edicts such as I suggested, but he would also have to be prepared to encounter a hierarchy who disregarded him, even on pain of their excommunication -- because in many ways they excommunicated themselves already decades ago.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #23 on: October 19, 2018, 06:49:25 AM »
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  • Only an extraordinarily saintly pope would have a prayer of reversing the obdurate disobedience of the leaders of the Conciliar Church.  The current cardinals and bishops are largely products and messengers of a spirit of rebellion against the deposit of faith.  Their mass conversion would be in the order of the miraculous, such as only some of the traditional saints have been instruments of.  

    Yes, a pope faithful to Catholicism could issue 25+ edicts such as I suggested, but he would also have to be prepared to encounter a hierarchy who disregarded him, even on pain of their excommunication -- because in many ways they excommunicated themselves already decades ago.
    I believe that the people must *first* want to repent and do all that goes with that, otherwise, all God's giving us an extraordinarily saintly pope would do, is provoke even more hate and persecution against the Church and faithful.

    Without the world's population resolve to repent, an extraordinarily saintly pope would have, not only the hierarchy, but  literally the entire world's population vehemently against him, (minus a small fraction of the population, aka the faithful).

    By and large, nobody on earth even believes there is any crisis at all, and those who see the problems, ignore them. We must remember that the people already have what they really want, that’s why they have it. That’s why they’ve chosen it, that’s why they protest and fight for it, and its why they continue to absorb it, cling to it and love it. Overall, they love this thing we call a crisis and will have no holy pope prodding their consciences under any circuмstances.    

    "Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him." Eccl 15:18


    If, OTOH, we did end up with a holy pope who went about fixing this mess, as Our Lady at Fatima said, he would have much to suffer, Catholic people would be martyred and nations would be annihilated. Think Antifa, times a few million.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TheJovialInquisitor

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #24 on: October 19, 2018, 07:32:18 AM »
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  • I believe that the people must *first* want to repent and do all that goes with that, otherwise, all God's giving us an extraordinarily saintly pope would do, is provoke even more hate and persecution against the Church and faithful.

    If, OTOH, we did end up with a holy pope who went about fixing this mess, as Our Lady at Fatima said, he would have much to suffer, Catholic people would be martyred and nations would be annihilated. Think Antifa, times a few million.  
    Good. Nothing will ever change if they can just delude themselves into thinking that 'tolerance' is the best policy, where world-wide persecutions would shatter such a delusion almost instantly.  My thinking is that if we can't convince modernized, liberal, 'Catholics' to embrace the teachings and dogmas of the True Faith, then at least we can put them in a position where they're forced to fight for their miserable lives.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #25 on: October 22, 2018, 11:42:33 PM »
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  • A complete rehabilitation of the Catholic doctrine of No Salvation Outside the Church. Because it was the weakening of this dogma which paved the way for the novel doctrines of religious liberty, ecuмenism, "human dignity", cordial dialogue and unity with the world, and many other contradictions to the True Faith.

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    Once the doctrine No Salvation Outside the Church is denied, many terrible problems will beset the Church. People will not think to trace these problems back to the denial of this doctrine; they will not see it, but this is the cause.

    ~ Fr. Feeney


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #26 on: October 27, 2018, 12:04:05 PM »
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  • I started this thread and I think it's time for a refocus. I was interested in knowing what it would take for you and the hierarchy to be in "full communion" with each other. Thank you MMagdala for a detailed list. That's what I had in mind. I also have several issues I would expect to be addressed.

    Nevertheless, an orthodox Rome might not do everything just as we want. What would and wouldn't be critical?

    I have met some traditionalist Catholics who focus on certain issues to the point that that I wondered if they would accept a Rome that didn't exactly fit their flavor of orthodoxy.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #27 on: October 27, 2018, 01:07:28 PM »
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  • I started this thread and I think it's time for a refocus. I was interested in knowing what it would take for you and the hierarchy to be in "full communion" with each other. Thank you MMagdala for a detailed list. That's what I had in mind. I also have several issues I would expect to be addressed.

    Nevertheless, an orthodox Rome might not do everything just as we want. What would and wouldn't be critical?

    I have met some traditionalist Catholics who focus on certain issues to the point that that I wondered if they would accept a Rome that didn't exactly fit their flavor of orthodoxy.
    It's never been about what "we want" (or at least it shouldn't be).  An "orthodox Rome" will bring us back to before the apostasy, before Vatican II.  I did not read everything listed by MMagdala but everything seemed to relate to what came before Vatican II.  Pre-Vatican II Canon Law, pre-Vatican II Sacraments, Pre-Vatican II Catechisms, pre-Vatican II Rites, etc, etc.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #28 on: October 27, 2018, 01:35:46 PM »
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  • Simply, all you need is a true pope.
    THIS!  The Church is hierarchical and the ruler is the Pope.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: What would it take to resolve the crisis?
    « Reply #29 on: October 27, 2018, 02:32:07 PM »
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  • Vatican I, a true council, defines a true pope.  So, read and understand Vatican I.  And Vatican I was never finished.  Go figure!