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Author Topic: Where are the SSJ members today?  (Read 9629 times)

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Offline Stanley N

Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2018, 01:32:15 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on November 02, 2018, 12:13:14 PM
That was in one of those committees that spun off as a result of Trent ... like the one that gave us the Roman Catechism.
I would like to know specifically. The kyries are identified in the Liber Usualis by the name of a trope common for that kyrie.
I found this at a blog on church music:
Quote
The Missal of the Roman Curia, which essentially became the Tridentine Missal of 1570, had no tropes, which is hardly surprising: Roman curial officials must not have been particularly interested in additions to the liturgy that might prolong the Mass, and indeed their missal was designed for the celebration of low Masses, hardly an environment favourable for troping. As a result, books published to provide the music for liturgical celebrations according to or based on the Tridentine model contained few if any tropes. At no point does it seem that tropes were expressly prohibited, except for one rubric contained in the 1570 Roman Missal (and not in the 1464 Missal) stating Sic dicitur Gloria in excelsis etiam in missis beatę Marię, which might indicate an effort to forbid the popular Marian tropes on the Gloria.

https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/01/01/on-tropes/
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 02:52:58 PM »
I don't have the citation.  Yes, the Kyries might be named shorthand for tropes, but the tropes themselves were eliminated.  They were not missing from the 1570 Missal because they were "too long", as this author speculates, but because they were deemed inappropriate by the commission which put together the Missal.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 03:01:47 PM »
From the Harvard Dictionary of Music:

"All the tropes were abolished by the Council of Trent.  Their traces survive, however, in the present-day names of many Kyries and the corresponding Mass Ordinaries."
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Offline Stanley N

Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 09:44:14 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on November 02, 2018, 03:01:47 PM
From the Harvard Dictionary of Music:

"All the tropes were abolished by the Council of Trent.  Their traces survive, however, in the present-day names of many Kyries and the corresponding Mass Ordinaries."
We both know that tropes were removed from the liturgical texts after Trent and would not be said by the priest at Mass. That's not exactly the same as saying they are or were forbidden to ever be sung during the liturgy on occasion.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Where are the SSJ members today?
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 10:48:13 AM »
Quote from: Stanley N on November 02, 2018, 09:44:14 PM
We both know that tropes were removed from the liturgical texts after Trent and would not be said by the priest at Mass. That's not exactly the same as saying they are or were forbidden to ever be sung during the liturgy on occasion.

There are notes in the Tridentine rubrics which indicate that the music must be performed exactly as contained therein, and there are proceedings out there from the commissions which indicate their intent to eliminate them.  That was the entire point behind the Tridentine Missal.  Trent did not invent a New Mass.  Trent was trying to standardize a common Mass and eliminate all the popular variants that had invaded the Mass and caused there to be hundreds of variations of the Latin Rite Mass out there ... including the hundreds of "trope" variations in the chant.
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