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Offline TKGS

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Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2018, 04:18:00 PM »
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  • Do crucifixes on rosaries all have the INRI?  I don't think so.  
    All of mine do, though we have one rosary crucifix that doesn't (but it is not on a rosary at this time).

    See this link for rosary parts.  It's hard to see, but most of the crucifixes they sell have the INRI.

    https://www.rosaryparts.com/crucifix/base-metal/

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #76 on: October 09, 2018, 02:02:30 AM »
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  • .
    Question:  What kind of crucifix is THAT?
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    Answer: THAT is not a crucifix.
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    It is not a crucifix, it is a Christ the King and His Cross. It is first and foremost a depiction of Christ as the King and it shows his prize cross. Just like a knight would show his sword. The people here can debate over the minimum requirements for a crucifix, but it is undeniable, that this is not a crucifix, just like a resurrection cross is not a crucifix.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline claudel

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #77 on: October 09, 2018, 04:02:30 AM »
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  • … The people here can debate over the minimum requirements for a crucifix, but it is undeniable, that this is not a crucifix, just like a resurrection cross is not a crucifix.

    The thing that is undeniable is that you, like Neil, patently lack the authority and the learning to declare that the object pictured is not a crucifix. Your comparing it with the so-called Resurrection crucifix marks you, not as authoritative, but merely brazen and foolish.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #78 on: October 09, 2018, 04:53:47 AM »
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  • .
    We have had a string of Modernist "Bishops of Rome" who have promoted the use of all manner of corrupted crosses that the world at large has presumed to be crucifixes, the ones used by Paul VI and JPII being prime examples:
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    Here are some closeups:
      
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    The drooping crossbar has been linked to a devil worship cross from the middle ages -- it represents the defeated Christ by having the weight of pulling downward being too much for the cross, so that it's overloaded and ultimately fails by breaking in the middle, the broken cross.
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    Out of a concern for answering the demand from customers, perhaps, imitation crosses have included the INRI, but the "originals" shown above don't have any INRI. Here's a crucifix from The Catholic Company, for sale:
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    So you could ask, why does this one have the INRI, when the ones the putative popes use don't have it? I went to meet JPII in 1985 in Rome and he gave me one of the Rosaries he was known to hand out like party favors. It has one of his crosses in place of the crucifix, and there is unquestionably no INRI on the top. I would expect (but I don't really know for certain) that The Catholic Company had numerous requests for the INRI to be on this cross, so they could have just ordered one to be made for them, to keep their customers happy. But like I said, this is not what the Vatican was putting out. All of their crosses had no INRI, and I never heard any explanation for that. How much trouble would it have been for the Vatican to include the INRI? Why would they choose to omit it? Who made the decision? Some Freemason? A Jew? Jews hate the INRI, and so do Freemasons, who are Jews, basically. Who would that have been??
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    BTW the "papal Rosary" I was given had a centerpiece (where the 3 chains attach) with JPII's coat of arms on the back and HIS OWN IMAGE on the front. I kid you not, it was HIS FACE in bas-relief right there on the centerpiece, instead of Our Lord, or Our Lady or the crown of thorns or whatever. His own picture. Now please explain that one. Not even The Catholic Company produced statues of JPII until he died, but then they started to put out Benedict XVI statues not long after his election. I thought that was pretty weird, but then when Francis was elected, within a month, The Catholic Company and Autom, had SALES on Francis statues! I recall telling friends at the time that I'd never seen that before, sale prices on statues of a newly elected pope. (This had nothing to do with St. Francis de Sales)
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    And now, we have Francis with an entire menagerie of strange crosses for what, entertainment value or whatever, but from what I can tell, NONE of them have any INRI on top. It seems to me that they're trying to distract everyone from the missing-ness of the INRI by having a whole fleet of vastly different crosses-pretending-to-be-crucifixes. It seems like a distraction campaign to tell you, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" (Cf. Wizard of Oz)  Do not pay any attention to the fact that these things-that-would-be-crucifixes are in fact not crucifixes. Read Benedict XVI's hermeneutic of continuity instead, which explains all the equivocation sophistries for how something can at the same time be and not be. If you're claudel, I'm sure it's one of your favorite reading items.
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    Any child can tell you that a thing either is something or it is not something. A fruit is either an apple, or it's not an apple; but a fruit cannot both be and not be an apple at the same time. Well, not according to Benedict XVI. So if he can do it with apples, then why not with papal crucifixes?

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #79 on: October 09, 2018, 07:53:05 AM »
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  • The thing that is undeniable is that you, like Neil, patently lack the authority and the learning to declare that the object pictured is not a crucifix. Your comparing it with the so-called Resurrection crucifix marks you, not as authoritative, but merely brazen and foolish.
    Not even you believe what you defend. Perhaps if you replaced all the traditional crucifixes throughout the world with  Christ the King crosses, then I would believe you. I do not know anything about you,  I do not know the full spectrum of your Catholicism to speculate as to why you would think as you do. It just looks like you just have a beef against the other gentleman
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline claudel

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #80 on: October 09, 2018, 12:12:11 PM »
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  • Not even you believe what you defend. Perhaps if you replaced all the traditional crucifixes throughout the world with Christ the King crosses, then I would believe you. I do not know anything about you. I do not know the full spectrum of your Catholicism to speculate as to why you would think as you do. It just looks like you just have a beef against the other gentleman.
    "Not even you believe what you defend." You're a clairvoyant, then, I take it—and a patronizing one at that. Or are you practicing the pseudoscience of psychiatry without a license?

    "I do not know anything about you." I quite agree. As for the sentence that follows the just-quoted one, it suggests strongly that you should amend your own presumption and intellectual immodesty before you begin speculating about the "full spectrum of [my] Catholicism."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #81 on: October 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM »
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  • .
    I've known Protestants who object to the corpus of Our Lord on the crucifix because they say, "You're crucifying Christ again..." and they refer to Hebrews 6:6, that a crucifix is "...making the Son of God a mockery."
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    These anti-Catholics hate the crucifix, and try to find excuses for their hatred in Scripture!!
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    But they have no problem with the following:
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    No nails, no INRI:  no crucifix.
    (There are tiny red marks from the nails, but no spear wound, and obviously, way overboard on the clothes.)
    So it's not surprising that someone who HATES crucifixes
    is at the same time someone who thinks this is just fine.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #82 on: October 09, 2018, 11:01:21 PM »
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  • Perhaps if you replaced all the traditional crucifixes throughout the world with  Christ the King crosses, then I would believe you. I do not know anything about you,  I do not know the full spectrum of your Catholicism to speculate as to why you would think as you do. It just looks like you just have a beef against the other gentleman
    LT, there is a way to find out about any poster. Just click on their name and all of their posts come up. https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/claudel/

    Claudel has a 6 year posting history which shows that he is astute, knowledgeable and doesn't suffer fools gladly.
    There is no reason to infer he had any desire to "replace all the traditional crucifixes throughout the world with  Christ the King crosses."


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #83 on: October 09, 2018, 11:11:32 PM »
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  • .
    Here's one the SSPX overlooked and chose instead the one they did for the classroom:
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    I say it's not unreasonable to expect that this would not be acceptable for the NeoSSPX.
    Reason being, the INRI above Our Lord's head is offensive to Jews.
    Reason being, they REJECT this Jesus Christ as their King.
    They want the sign to say, "HE SAID, I am the King of the Jews" (Jn. 19:21).
    Simple.
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    Offline VeritasLuxMea

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #84 on: October 09, 2018, 11:23:04 PM »
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  • The discussion of the artwork and what qualifies as a crucifix aside, I think the original post might be a bit mistaken in the assumptions.

    That video was made over 3 years ago, it shows the old seminary, not the new seminary and thus the old conference room in the basement under the chapel (the former bowling alley).

    The crucifix/cross/artwork was there since at least 2007 when I remember attending an adult Catechism there on a Sunday. I was told it was a gift of one of the seminary priests to the seminary when the room was converted from the bowling alley into the conference room, so it probably was there earlier than 2007.

    I have seen dozens of similar pieces of art in old churches, especially neo-Gothic, Jugendstil-style or Beuronese-style churches, showing Christ the King as High Priest nailed to the Cross in vestments. They were especially common in the early 20th century, particularly the 1930s. Almost every single one, except the more modern ones you can find today, have Our Lord wearing a maniple, so certainly not a post-Vatican II phenomenon. 

    I'll leave the definition of what qualifies as a crucifix and what is tasteful art to others, but the history of that piece of artwork of that seems important to point out. It's not at the new seminary, as far as I remember on a tour of it, and at the old seminary it was in that room for at least 10 years before the video was made, so isn't something new.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #85 on: October 09, 2018, 11:30:03 PM »
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  • .
    That's an interesting contribution, VeritasLuxMea. Thank you. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #86 on: October 10, 2018, 01:08:56 AM »
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  • 8th century. Carved cedar. Cathedral of St. Martin, Lucca, Italy.
    Local legend has it that this cross was carved at the time of the Crucifixion by Nicodemus
    and that it arrived in Lucca miraculously in 782
    .

    http://www.christianiconography.info/iconographySupplementalImages/crucifixion/lucca.html
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    Since the photo above cuts off the upper part of the cross, I looked for a more complete photo and found this:
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    The crown is missing here, but also notice the angel on the right has a changed position, turned toward Christ on the cross.
    All the figures seem to have a more dull luster here too, but that might be due to lighting.
    I still can't see anything like an INRI on top, but the figure of the Holy Ghost might be covering up some inscription.
    The fact that the crown is missing here should be of no concern: this is still the same shrine and cross with angels.
    For different occasions there are a variety of adornments used giving a variety of appearances to the same basic forms.
    Notice, Jesus wears a maniple on each arm!:
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #87 on: October 10, 2018, 02:27:49 AM »
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    Ran into this curiosity in Lucca, Italy. The "Amphitheater Square," they say (misspelled?):
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    You have to admit, the whole scheme is really remarkable -- elliptical plot plan??
    Only in Italy??
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    FWIW   There is absolutely NO WAY anyone could build this in Los Angeles County.
    They would never get past first base at Plan Check.

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #88 on: October 10, 2018, 07:33:55 AM »
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  • LT, there is a way to find out about any poster. Just click on their name and all of their posts come up. https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/claudel/

    Claudel has a 6 year posting history which shows that he is astute, knowledgeable and doesn't suffer fools gladly.
    There is no reason to infer he had any desire to "replace all the traditional crucifixes throughout the world with  Christ the King crosses."
    What I meant by what I said was that if he really believes that it is a crucifix, then he would be alright with all the traditional crucifixes in his home and in all the churches and homes being replaced by that Christ the King cross. If one truly believes something, they would have the conviction to say yes, I would have no problem replacing all the crucifixes with that Christ the King cross.

    As I would have no problem with replacing all the crosses in the entire world with this cross:


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: What kind of crucifix is THAT at the SSPX seminary?
    « Reply #89 on: October 10, 2018, 08:29:56 AM »
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  • I don't know how scrupulous you have to be about the Crucifix, but this is what I was told by someone greatly respected. All of the offending Crucifixes in my home have been changed accordingly.

    The Crucifix should be made in Western Europe or at least the USA- NOT CHINA. (for the many reasons you can imagine)
    The Cross itself should be wood.
    The Corpus' head should be leaning to the right, and the feet should be either side by side or right over left, not left over right.
    The lance wound in the side should obviously be on the right- but you would be surprised how many Crucifixes have this wound on the left. ( In the FSSP Church outside of Denver, the Crucifix in the back of the church has the lance wound on the left. Don't tell me they don't know better!)
    There should not be any blatant deformities, intentional or manufactured in the corpus, (this happens often especially in the facial area from molds).
    Jesus' drape around the waist should be modest without too much artistic license (no wind-blown flowing "fabric", no exposure of the hip or high knotted cloth on the hip- this is a tough one to find for home crucifixes)
    And of course, the INRI must be at the top. I'm sure there are more things to look for, but this is what was suggested to me. I'm sure people might take some exceptions to these "rules". The Crucifix above in Tradican's post is practically perfect.( it's a truly beautiful Crucifix, besides the hip knot.....I would certainly modify that "rule" for this magnificent Crucifix)

     

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