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Author Topic: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?  (Read 4294 times)

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Offline de Lugo

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What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
« on: September 15, 2022, 11:11:10 AM »
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    • Msgr. Vigano (13/8/22):

    "Abusing the vicarious power of Christ and placing oneself outside the succession by proposing heterodox doctrines, or by imposing norms that refer to them, makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear."

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/abp-vigano-authoritarian-tyrant-pope-francis-causing-incalculable-damage-in-the-church/ 

    Can someone help me interpret what he is saying with this quote?  Is he referring to Bergoglio's pontificate, or to individual heretical teachings of Bergoglio?

     
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #1 on: September 15, 2022, 11:33:23 AM »
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    • I think he takes for granted that everyone understands that the pope's business is not to make and then to change, to create and promote new ideas. The pope's business is to preserve, to formulate, to teach the faith as it has always been in order that there be a preservation of all that was established by the Apostles and all the previous popes, this  is how we maintain our link with Christ for his flock's salvation. His duty is to maintain that which has been handed to him, proposing heterodox doctrines is for heretics and "makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear."
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #2 on: September 15, 2022, 11:39:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 15, 2022, 11:33:23 AM
    I think he takes for granted that everyone understands that the pope's business is not to make and then to change, to create and promote new ideas. The pope's business is to preserve, to formulate, to teach the faith as it has always been in order that there be a preservation of all that was established by the Apostles and all the previous popes, this  is how we maintain our link with Christ for his flock's salvation. His duty is to maintain that which has been handed to him, proposing heterodox doctrines is for heretics and "makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear."

    Well said, Stubborn. 
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #3 on: September 15, 2022, 11:47:12 AM »
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    • Look at the difference in perspective between Msgr. Vigano here, and another famous lettre from the FSSPX:

    Msgr. Vigano: Roman modernists intend to destroy the Church -

    "It is evident that this relentless action of war against traditional Catholics includes a strategy and a tactic, and that it corresponds to a plan devised for decades to destroy the Church of Christ and replace it with its ecuмenical, globalist, and apostate counterfeit. It would be foolish to think that they act without a purpose and without organizing themselves.
    Bergoglio’s election in the conclave of 2013 was also planned: let’s not forget the emails between John Podesta and Hillary Clinton about the need to promote a “springtime of the Church” in which a progressive pope modifies its doctrine and morals by enslaving them to nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr ideology.
    Action against Benedict XVI was planned to push him to resign. The subversive work of the innovators at the Council was planned. The action of progressives loyal to Bergoglio was planned in the synods, in the meetings of the curial dicasteries, in the consistories. On the other hand, behind the enemies of Christ and the Church, Satan always hides with his plots, his deceptions, his lies."


    FSSP (Abbe Simoulin): The Roman modernists do NOT wish to destroy the Church -

    "That being said, can we really consider this authority as working for the destruction of the Faith? It would seem more accurate to call it an authority that does not profess the Faith, or does not confess it in its integrity, and that professes notions that are dangerous or even against the Faith. For there is a distinction to be made between an intention to destroy the Faith and an effect that was not directly wished for. It is clear that this loss of the Faith is a consequence of the conciliar doctrine that has been professed for the past 50 years, but can we say that this was and still is the intention of its promoters? If such were the case, these authorities would no longer have the Faith and would no longer be formally Catholic, and to believe this would be implicitly sedevacantist."
    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/avoiding-false-spirit-resistance-3764

    No wonder there is no collaboration between Msgr. Vigano and the FSSPX: The former attributes evil intentions (supported by volumes of external evidence), while the latter believes the damage is incidental, and the modernists want to encourage Tradition.  Who can forget Msgr. Fellay telling the Australian faithful that Rome's offer of an agreement is not a trap, and "they want to do good to us?"
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #4 on: September 15, 2022, 12:32:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on September 15, 2022, 11:11:10 AM
    Msgr. Vigano (13/8/22):

    "Abusing the vicarious power of Christ and placing oneself outside the succession by proposing heterodox doctrines, or by imposing norms that refer to them, makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear."

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/abp-vigano-authoritarian-tyrant-pope-francis-causing-incalculable-damage-in-the-church/

    Can someone help me interpret what he is saying with this quote?  Is he referring to Bergoglio's pontificate, or to individual heretical teachings of Bergoglio?

     

    It sounds to me like, in an oblique way, he is suggesting that Francis has relinquished the papacy through heterodox teachings.

    But did he say this in English, in Italian, or in some other language?  There might be a nuance I'm missing.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #5 on: September 15, 2022, 01:03:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 15, 2022, 12:32:58 PM
    It sounds to me like, in an oblique way, he is suggesting that Francis has relinquished the papacy through heterodox teachings.

    But did he say this in English, in Italian, or in some other language?  There might be a nuance I'm missing.

    He said this in Italian:

    (LifeSiteNews) – Editor’s note: Below follows the transcript of an interview between Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò and Paix Liturgique during a conference held by the Civitas movement on August 13. The interview has been translated from Italian.

    [Apologies for my confusion in thinking the responses were originally in the French.  Paix Liturgique is predominantly French, but also has various website translations.  The Italian page does not contain this interview, but the French does (hence my thinking that this was the original, until I returned to the English translation reproduced by LSN above).  I cannot explain why the interview in the original Italian would not be published in PL's Italian language page.]

    In any case, the bottom of the French translation carries this approbation: "©Traduction de F. de Villasmundo pour Paix Liturgique relue et corrigée par Mgr Viganò" (i.e., Translation by F. de Villasmundo for Paix Liturgique proofread and corrected by Msgr. Viganò).
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #6 on: September 15, 2022, 01:20:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on September 15, 2022, 01:03:35 PM
    He said this in Italian:

    (LifeSiteNews) – Editor’s note: Below follows the transcript of an interview between Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò and Paix Liturgique during a conference held by the Civitas movement on August 13. The interview has been translated from Italian.

    [Apologies for my confusion in thinking the responses were originally in the French.  Paix Liturgique is predominantly French, but also has various website translations.  The Italian page does not contain this interview, but the French does (hence my thinking that this was the original, until I returned to the English translation reproduced by LSN above).  I cannot explain why the interview in the original Italian would not be published in PL's Italian language page.]

    In any case, the bottom of the French translation carries this approbation: "©Traduction de F. de Villasmundo pour Paix Liturgique relue et corrigée par Mgr Viganò" (i.e., Translation by F. de Villasmundo for Paix Liturgique proofread and corrected by Msgr. Viganò).

    https://fr.paix-liturgique.org/aff_lettre.asp?LET_N_ID=3540
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #7 on: September 15, 2022, 02:09:58 PM »
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    • After reading this interview, he still sounds like he is of the "Benedict is still the pope" variety.

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #8 on: September 15, 2022, 03:17:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on September 15, 2022, 11:11:10 AM
    "Abusing the vicarious power of Christ and placing oneself outside the succession by proposing heterodox doctrines, or by imposing norms that refer to them, makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear.

    He's saying that by preaching heresy you separate yourself from the Catholic Church.  And, therefore, you cannot be or would cease to be the Pope (i.e. sedevacantism).  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #9 on: September 15, 2022, 03:19:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on September 15, 2022, 03:17:22 PM
    He's saying that by preaching heresy you separate yourself from the Catholic Church.  And, therefore, you cannot be or would cease to be the Pope (i.e. sedevacantism). 
    If only he'd just say it.  Of course, like I said above, I think he thinks Ratzinger is pope.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #10 on: September 15, 2022, 03:24:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 15, 2022, 03:19:37 PM
    If only he'd just say it.  Of course, like I said above, I think he thinks Ratzinger is pope.
    Yeah.  Sadly, Ratzinger is the poster child and embodiment of the Rhine flowing into the Tiber.  Complete Modernist through and through and hardly an alternative.  LOL
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #11 on: September 15, 2022, 05:12:24 PM »
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    • After reading Vigano interview, it was very disappointing how he answered to: What flaws in the Mass..... vigano states 3 major flaws(not heresies) in the Mass.  Not one of those major flaws had anything to do with the loss of the Precious Blood.  Not one flaw(heresy) was mentioned for the loss of Holy Orders to bring Christ to His People.  Holy cow! God have Mercy!!
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #12 on: September 15, 2022, 05:39:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 15, 2022, 02:09:58 PM
    After reading this interview, he still sounds like he is of the "Benedict is still the pope" variety.

    Or that too.  I didn't think of that.

    It's entirely possible, if a bit tendentious, to say that Francis is not the Pope, simply because Benedict still is. 

    Indeed, that doesn't even require one to say that Francis is a heretic, or rather, it doesn't require one to say that Francis has either lost the papal office, or never held it in the first place, on account of being a heretic.  If Benedict were still the Pope, Francis could be as traditional as Vigano, Schneider, or (arguably) Burke, and he still wouldn't be Pope, because you can only have one Pope at a time.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #13 on: September 15, 2022, 06:12:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on September 15, 2022, 05:12:24 PM
    After reading Vigano interview, it was very disappointing how he answered to: What flaws in the Mass..... vigano states 3 major flaws(not heresies) in the Mass.  Not one of those major flaws had anything to do with the loss of the Precious Blood.  Not one flaw(heresy) was mentioned for the loss of Holy Orders to bring Christ to His People.  Holy cow! God have Mercy!!

    What do you mean by "loss of the Precious Blood"?  Are you saying that the consecration of the Body is valid but that of the Blood is not?  And how do you support this?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #14 on: September 15, 2022, 06:31:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on September 15, 2022, 05:12:24 PM
    After reading Vigano interview, it was very disappointing how he answered to: What flaws in the Mass..... vigano states 3 major flaws(not heresies) in the Mass.  Not one of those major flaws had anything to do with the loss of the Precious Blood.  Not one flaw(heresy) was mentioned for the loss of Holy Orders to bring Christ to His People.  Holy cow! God have Mercy!!
    He can't say that....at least not yet....because that would mean his orders are invalid.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
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