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Author Topic: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?  (Read 4296 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2022, 08:03:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 15, 2022, 11:39:51 AM
    Well said, Stubborn.

    :facepalm: ... the fact that you think Stubborns utterly nonsensical and at-time heretical gobbledygook is "well said" says a lot about you.

    For the Pope to "safeguard Tradition" is not merely a duty or a job; he's protected by the Holy Spirit for doing so.  Take your Old Catholic garbage to an Old Catholic discussion forum.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #16 on: September 15, 2022, 08:05:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 15, 2022, 12:32:58 PM
    It sounds to me like, in an oblique way, he is suggesting that Francis has relinquished the papacy through heterodox teachings.

    But did he say this in English, in Italian, or in some other language?  There might be a nuance I'm missing.

    It's hard to say.  Archbishop Lefevre used the same type of rhetoric, saying that Rome is in schism because they broke from Tradition.
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    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #17 on: September 15, 2022, 08:51:53 PM »
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    • It's the fruit of the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita. Now they have the numbers and now they have their pope ( usurper papacy).

    A pagan friendly apostate who is ok with sodomy as well.
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    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #18 on: September 16, 2022, 08:04:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 15, 2022, 08:03:43 PM
    :facepalm: ... the fact that you think Stubborns utterly nonsensical and at-time heretical gobbledygook is "well said" says a lot about you.

    For the Pope to "safeguard Tradition" is not merely a duty or a job; he's protected by the Holy Spirit for doing so.  Take your Old Catholic garbage to an Old Catholic discussion forum.

    I guess the Holy Ghost has been on vacation for the last 5 or 6 popes, eh? Maybe you could remind Him - if He's listening to you in your padded (I hope for your sake it's padded) cell, Mr. Delusional. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #19 on: September 16, 2022, 09:31:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 16, 2022, 08:04:38 AM
    I guess the Holy Ghost has been on vacation for the last 5 or 6 popes, eh? Maybe you could remind Him - if He's listening to you in your padded (I hope for your sake it's padded) cell, Mr. Delusional.
    .
    While it would be impossible for the last 5 or 6 papal claimants to be true popes given their profession of heresy, it is not at all impossible that they were not true popes but only heretics claiming possession of the Holy See.

    We are guaranteed that the Holy Ghost will not allow a pope to teach heresy to the whole Church in his official capacity as pope. We are not guaranteed that everyone who puts on a white cassock and claims to be pope will be the pope.

    One of the most evident proofs of sedevacantism is the argument that any other explanation of the crisis is impossible.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #20 on: September 16, 2022, 09:43:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 16, 2022, 09:31:57 AM
    .
    While it would be impossible for the last 5 or 6 papal claimants to be true popes given their profession of heresy, it is not at all impossible that they were not true popes but only heretics claiming possession of the Holy See.

    We are guaranteed that the Holy Ghost will not allow a pope to teach heresy to the whole Church in his official capacity as pope. We are not guaranteed that everyone who puts on a white cassock and claims to be pope will be the pope.

    One of the most evident proofs of sedevacantism is the argument that any other explanation of the crisis is impossible.

    Ok, so the "pope" is not the captain of the ship; he's just in command of it. 

    "You're drowned; the ship's sunk; but that guy in fancy clothes and feathered hat on the quarter deck with the spy glass who drove us into the rocks wasn't really the captain." 

    I'm not sure that is going to be much comfort to the drowned on the bottom of the ocean. 

    There's a purpose posited for the Holy Ghost's protection of the pope and the ecclessia docens that is the rai·son d'ê·tre behind that doctrine of indefectibility Ladislaus keeps trumpeting: the protection of the Church's faith from harm. That purpose has been belied and obliterated by last 60 or so years, and shows the doctrine to be the delusional error it is - as he and those late 19th and 20th century theologians and manualists have described it. All his jumping up and down, shouting heresy, etc. doesn't change a thing . . . but keeps puffing him up in his delusion of hyper-orthodoxy and dogmatic rectitude.  

    He's going to blow up like the Hindenburg Blimp soon, no matter what he calls himself, or the pope. 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #21 on: September 16, 2022, 10:03:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 15, 2022, 11:33:23 AM
    I think he takes for granted that everyone understands that the pope's business is not to make and then to change, to create and promote new ideas. The pope's business is to preserve, to formulate, to teach the faith as it has always been in order that there be a preservation of all that was established by the Apostles and all the previous popes, this  is how we maintain our link with Christ for his flock's salvation. His duty is to maintain that which has been handed to him, proposing heterodox doctrines is for heretics and "makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear."

    I agree. The quote that the OP refers to should be read in the light of the entire article. It seems apparent that +Vigano is not saying that Francis is not the Pope, though it's a bit confusing. I do wish that +Vigano would not use language which gives sedevacantists the hope that he is a sedevacanist. Here's what +Vigano says in the paragraph following the one in which the OP sentence is given, in which he seems to clarify what he means:

    "In fact, the Pope's vicarious power enjoys the special grace of state always within the very specific boundaries of this purpose; these graces have no effect where he acts against Christ and the Church. This is why Bergolio's furious attempts, however violent and destructive, are inexorably destined to break, and one day will certainly be declared null and void." 

    The above quote seems to echo what +ABL believed as well, when referring to Modernist Popes. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #22 on: September 16, 2022, 10:18:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 16, 2022, 09:31:57 AM
    One of the most evident proofs of sedevacantism is the argument that any other explanation of the crisis is impossible.
    Well said.

    Another quote from Meg (not sure how to quote from two different posts at the same time) -

    "I do wish that +Vigano would not use language which gives sedevacantists the hope that he is a sedevacanist."

    It does not matter to me whether Vigano is a sedevacantist or not.  He's simply affirming the Catholic teaching on the papacy and that can only lead to sedevacantism.  Took me a while to get there but that's Catholic teaching (as well as the Doctrine of Indefectibility - that it's impossible for the Catholic Church to teach error to the world). 
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #23 on: September 16, 2022, 10:20:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 16, 2022, 09:31:57 AM
    While it would be impossible for the last 5 or 6 papal claimants to be true popes given their profession of heresy...

    It is important to recognize that this is a mere opinion of some reknowned theologians (opposed by other reknowned theologians), and not Church teaching.

    According to Arnoldo da Silveira, nearly all the defenders of the opinion that "God will never permit that a pope should fall into heresy" (i.e., the "first opinion" in S. Bellarmine's classifications) -which include S. Bellarmine, Suarez, Bouix, Billot, Pighi, and others- did not hold this opinion as certain, but only as "more probable."

    This means they did not consider it impossible that a pope could be a heretic, only improbable.

    It is also important to recognize that the adherents of this opinion named above (with the possible exception of Pighi), only and precisely because they consider that opinion as uncertain, go on to entertain other improbable positions (i.e., S. Bellarmine's classification of opinions 2-5), arguendo. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #24 on: September 16, 2022, 10:27:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on September 16, 2022, 10:18:52 AM
    Well said.

    Another quote from Meg (not sure how to quote from two different posts at the same time) -

    "I do wish that +Vigano would not use language which gives sedevacantists the hope that he is a sedevacanist."

    It does not matter to me whether Vigano is a sedevacantist or not.  He's simply affirming the Catholic teaching on the papacy and that can only lead to sedevacantism.  Took me a while to get there but that's Catholic teaching (as well as the Doctrine of Indefectibility - that it's impossible for the Catholic Church to teach error to the world).

    I think I see what you mean, but +Vigano does not ever mention that what he refers to or affirms about the papacy can only lead to sedevacantism. In fact, given the context of the entire article, it is obvious that he believes Bergolio to be the Pope. And, since he believes Bergolio to be the Pope, all other hopes for his being a sedevacantist fails miserably. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #25 on: September 16, 2022, 10:39:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on September 16, 2022, 10:18:52 AM
      He's simply affirming the Catholic teaching on the papacy and that can only lead to sedevacantism.  Took me a while to get there but that's Catholic teaching (as well as the Doctrine of Indefectibility - that it's impossible for the Catholic Church to teach error to the world).

    Your a priori should enter into consultation with your a posteriori.

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #26 on: September 16, 2022, 10:52:38 AM »
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    • Why the red highlighting?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #27 on: September 16, 2022, 12:02:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 16, 2022, 09:31:57 AM
    .
    While it would be impossible for the last 5 or 6 papal claimants to be true popes given their profession of heresy, it is not at all impossible that they were not true popes but only heretics claiming possession of the Holy See.

    We are guaranteed that the Holy Ghost will not allow a pope to teach heresy to the whole Church in his official capacity as pope. We are not guaranteed that everyone who puts on a white cassock and claims to be pope will be the pope.

    One of the most evident proofs of sedevacantism is the argument that any other explanation of the crisis is impossible.
    The reason that any other explanation of the crisis is impossible is because your preceding paragraph is altogether wrong and because that is the case, can only lead to a wrong conclusion.

    The dogma is that the Holy Ghost will not allow a pope to teach heresy to the whole Church when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra, not when he teaches in his official capacity as pope.

    V1 even states there is no protection from the Holy Ghost should he preach heresies ("new doctrines"): "For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter, not so that they might by his revelation make known some new doctrine...."

     
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #28 on: September 16, 2022, 03:36:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 16, 2022, 12:02:19 PM
    The dogma is that the Holy Ghost will not allow a pope to teach heresy to the whole Church when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra, not when he teaches in his official capacity as pope.
    .
    This goes against (condemned) Proposition 22 of the Syllabus of Errors:

    Quote
    22. The obligation by which Catholic teachers and authors are strictly bound is confined to those things only which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church. — Letter to the Archbishop of Munich, “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.

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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #29 on: September 16, 2022, 04:54:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 16, 2022, 09:43:09 AM

    Ok, so the "pope" is not the captain of the ship; he's just in command of it.

    "You're drowned; the ship's sunk; but that guy in fancy clothes and feathered hat on the quarter deck with the spy glass who drove us into the rocks wasn't really the captain."

    I'm not sure that is going to be much comfort to the drowned on the bottom of the ocean.

    There's a purpose posited for the Holy Ghost's protection of the pope and the ecclessia docens that is the rai·son d'ê·tre behind that doctrine of indefectibility Ladislaus keeps trumpeting: the protection of the Church's faith from harm. That purpose has been belied and obliterated by last 60 or so years, and shows the doctrine to be the delusional error it is - as he and those late 19th and 20th century theologians and manualists have described it. All his jumping up and down, shouting heresy, etc. doesn't change a thing . . . but keeps puffing him up in his delusion of hyper-orthodoxy and dogmatic rectitude. 

    He's going to blow up like the Hindenburg Blimp soon, no matter what he calls himself, or the pope.

    If your metaphor here is describing the Church as a ship that has crashed on the rocks, with people that have drowned by staying inside her, then that is your problem right there. We know that the Church will not sink and that people cannot be lost by the fact of remaining inside her.

    I would respond to the rest of your statement, but I'm not sure I can do that until you clarify what you are saying here.
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