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Author Topic: Contra Ronaldus - Lawfully Resisting the Pope  (Read 4944 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: Contra Ronaldus - Lawfully Resisting the Pope
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 10:52:19 AM »
As two dogmatic positions on the crisis have it out here, allow me to drop in my two cents.

Fr. Chazal has admitted that after studying the "seminary libraries" that both the "loss of office" and "non-loss of office" opinions regarding Popes who become heretics or publicly promote heresy are and have been permitted by the Church. This is important. It means that up until now the Church has not spoken even when there were great theologians and even Doctors of the Church on both sides (such as St. Robert Bellarmine or St. John of God). Fr. Chazal has probably been the most honest and balanced priest I've heard so far to comment publicly on this state of the papacy in this current crisis (I can think of a few others.)

That's why the attacking of positions of other Traditional Catholics' take on the state of the crisis as error is a total moral-less waste of time. It is akin to the Immaculate Conception Dogma before it was solemnly defined. The Dominicans and Franciscans went at it, but at least theirs was a fruitful effort to some extent because there was still a Catholic Pope at the time (something which all sides agree is lacking in our current crisis.)

So for both sides of the sede vacante and sedeplena to call each other's views an error is to arrogate to themselves a power which they simply don't have. St. Robert Bellarmine's view was never condemned as neither were the opposing views! Fr.Chazal has publicly admitted that the sede vacante position is a valid Catholic opinion with theologians and Doctors of the Church which support it. The R and R argument also has its theologians to support it. Neither of these have ever been condemned as error by the Church. They have only been condemned as error by those who wish to carry their opinion in this crisis to that of a dogmatic fact and condemn the opposing view, something which they have no power or authority to do.

And now to close with a little thought...

“On the other hand, it seems to us much more certain that the faith taught by the Church for twenty centuries can contain no errors than it is absolutely certain that the pope is truly pope. Heresy, schism, ipso facto excommunication, invalidity of his election are all causes from which it may sometimes result that a Pope has never been or is now no longer Pope. In this case, a very exceptional one of course, the Church would be in the situation she experiences after the death of a soveriegn Pontiff. For a grave problem does, after all, confront the conscience and faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate. How can a pope, true successor to St. Peter, assured of the assistance of the Holy Ghost, preside over the destruction of the Church, the deepest and most excessive in Her history, in so short a space of time, what no heresiarch has ever succeeded in doing? All those enter into schism who cooperate in this realization of this upheaval and adhere to this new Conciliar Church, as His Excellency Bishop Benelli designated it in the letter he addressed to me in the Holy Father’s name last June 25th.” (Archbishop Lefebvre-Declaration of August 2, 1976.)


Doesn't Fr. Chazal believe that Francis does not have jurisdiction, even though he is the pope?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Contra Ronaldus - Lawfully Resisting the Pope
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 11:45:43 AM »

Doesn't Fr. Chazal believe that Francis does not have jurisdiction, even though he is the pope?

Based on something he wrote, it sounds like Father Chazal believes that Francis has jurisdiction, but that his use of it is illicit, since he's a heretic.  And he holds that Francis completely lacks all teaching authority due to his heresy.  This is actually a very credible position.  I have held the position that he only materially possesses jurisdiction but that material jurisdiction suffices to make appointments, and that those appointed can actually formally exercise the jurisdiction if in fact they had no impediment to do so.  That's why, for instance, a material pope can appoint material Cardinals who can then elect another material pope who can appoint more material cardinals who can then elect a formal (& material) Pope ... if one of the people they happen to elect isn't a heretic ... even if all the Cardinals would be heretics.  And the same thing applies top down.  Another consequence is that if a material Pope appoints a bishop, who happens NOT to be a heretic, then that Bishop can FORMALLY hold and exercise episcopal jurisdiction.  Let's say there's an Eastern Rite bishop who isn't a heretic and is validly consecrated a bishop.


Re: Contra Ronaldus - Lawfully Resisting the Pope
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 01:00:22 PM »
Based on something he wrote, it sounds like Father Chazal believes that Francis has jurisdiction, but that his use of it is illicit, since he's a heretic.  And he holds that Francis completely lacks all teaching authority due to his heresy.  This is actually a very credible position.  I have held the position that he only materially possesses jurisdiction but that material jurisdiction suffices to make appointments, and that those appointed can actually formally exercise the jurisdiction if in fact they had no impediment to do so.  That's why, for instance, a material pope can appoint material Cardinals who can then elect another material pope who can appoint more material cardinals who can then elect a formal (& material) Pope ... if one of the people they happen to elect isn't a heretic ... even if all the Cardinals would be heretics.  And the same thing applies top down.  Another consequence is that if a material Pope appoints a bishop, who happens NOT to be a heretic, then that Bishop can FORMALLY hold and exercise episcopal jurisdiction.  Let's say there's an Eastern Rite bishop who isn't a heretic and is validly consecrated a bishop.
That theory/position, in my opinion, does violence to the visibility of the Church.  How can we say the Church is visible if it is not readily apparent who can exercise authority legitimately?  In my opinion it is better to just admit that currently nobody is exercising authority.  If we all agreed on that point then the next step would be obvious.  The Catholic clergy would then have to elect a Catholic pope.  Of course, then it would be a question of who are the Catholic clergy?  Well, obviously the way forward is not going to be a cake walk.

Re: Contra Ronaldus - Lawfully Resisting the Pope
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 10:59:24 PM »
Another observation:

If assisting a sedeprivationist priest who dogmatically condemns R&R is good enough for Fr. Ortiz then is it good enough for all of us. It is a contradiction to condemn Fr. Ringrose and not all the clergy who assist his apostolate, which by the way includes Bp. Zendejas.
As Fr. Chazal pointed out, both the R and R and sede vacante positions have their canonists, theologians and Doctors of the Church which were never condemned before the Council and allowed to carry the debate of 'loss of office' vs 'non-loss of office'. This means that both positions are tenable Catholic positions until Holy Mother Church says otherwise. Those who condemn the opposing position have no authority to do so.