Author Topic: What feast on Dec. 8?  (Read 1554 times)

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Offline drew

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Re: What feast on Dec. 8?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2019, 12:34:59 PM »
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  • Drew,

    You're both correct and incorrect.

    The simplification in 1955 did elevate Advent Sundays to Doubles of First Class. So, yes, the Immaculate Conception was replaced with the Sunday in 1957. Here you are correct.

    The 1960 Rubrics established a new ranking system and table of precedence to remedy this problem. As shown above the system ranks the Immaculate Conception higher than the Sunday, so if following the 1960 rubrics one celebrates the feast, not the Sunday. Here you are incorrect.

    Until 1956 the feast takes precedence. From 1957-1959 (in practice only in 1957) the Sunday took precedence. Since 1960, the feast again takes precedence.

    No one follows the 1955 changes without the 1960. If they dislike the 1960, they don't revert to 1957. If they like or tolerate the 1960, there is no basis for reverting to an archaic system. Thus, there are no people today who would hold this "middle position". And if none of these in practice exists, then neither would the Immaculate Conception be omitted or transferred.


    I received this clarification from Rubricarius at St. Lawrence Press:

    Quote
    Rubricarius said...
    @Drew,

    Following the reforms of Cum nostra (March 1955, effective from 1 Jan 1956) the second Sunday of Advent could not be outranked by any feast. So in 1957 when the Immaculate Conception fell on a Sunday it was transferred to Monday 9th. The 1960 rubrics 'tweaked' this and gave the feast of the Immaculate Conception particular privileges so it would outrank the second Sunday of Advent. The ordinary form of the 1962 rite reverts back to the 1956-60 arrangement. The 1956 rubrics are used by groups such as the CMRI.

    So in summary:
    Pre-1956 - feast takes precedence over Sunday
    1956-1960 - Sunday takes precedence over feast, feast transferred
    1961-1969 - feast takes precedence over Sunday
    1970- Sunday takes precedence over feast, feast transferred.

    I trust that clarifies

    It is still not clear to me the mechanism of the "tweak." John XXIII published Rubricarum instructum in July 1960 that was implemented by decree Novum rubricarum by the Sacred Congregation of Rites the next day. This decree continued the changes in the classification of feasts and Sundays that began in 1956.  In this decree every Sunday in Advent (and no longer traditionally just the first Sunday) is made a greater Sunday of the First class and therefore could not be supplanted by any another feast by these rubrics. Rubricarius dates this "tweak" to 1960 but they are not contained in this July 1960 decree from the Sacred Congregation of Rites. There were continual modification in the rubrics to the Missal during this period which continued through to the publication of the Novus Ordo.  St. Joseph's name was added to the canon in December 1962. Apparently the "tweak" was an exception to the established rule because it no longer applies to the 1962 Indult communities whose usage is under the regulations established by Rubricarum instructum and Novum rubricarum, that is, in those rubrics established in 1960 the Sunday is not outranked by the feast.  In the current version of the Novus Ordo, the feast does not supplant the Sunday in Advent and is translated to the following Monday. If I receive a further clarification from Rubricarius, I will post it.

    I would encourage all to obtain a copy of the Rubricarius' (St. Lawrence Press) Ordo to support his work and become more familiar with the daily implications of the liturgical changes of the Bugnini commision beginning in 1956.  You can also get a pre-1956 Ordo from The Roman Catholic, Black Eagle, MT. I get both to see some minor differences that occur between the U.S. and England.

    https://ordorecitandi.blogspot.com/p/ordering-information-for-ordo.html

    Drew

    Offline madwoman

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    Re: What feast on Dec. 8?
    « Reply #31 on: December 02, 2019, 09:29:51 AM »
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  • I have a calendar at home printed by/for the resistance, and it shows The Feast of the Immaculate Conception on Sunday ,December 8th.  No mention of it on the following day, December 9th.  If your calling the SSPX calendar incorrect, then the resistance calendar is also incorrect. I don't have the calendar in front of me now, but if you need to verify what I'm saying, I will get you the publishing information tomorrow.  It was printed specifically for the resistance/ by the resistance. It is correct for it to celebrated on Sunday, December 8th.  


    Offline VeritasLuxMea

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    Re: What feast on Dec. 8?
    « Reply #32 on: December 02, 2019, 03:22:56 PM »
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  • Drew,

    Rubricarius is correct, except one small point. The tweak started in 1960, not 1961. That was immaterial in practice, since the Immaculate Conception in 1960 was on a Thursday. Dec 8 was next a Sunday in 1963. So in 1963, the Second Sunday of Advent was in fact the Immaculate Conception with a commemoration of the Sunday. Were you to look up an ordo for the year 1963, it would show this.

    The 1960 Rubrics are very clear. The Immaculate Conception outranks the Second Sunday of Advent. In no. 91 of this set of rubrics, this could not be more clear.

    For Rubricarius to call the 1960 rubrics a "tweak" is inaccurate. It isn't really a tweak except in effect.

    In 1960 a whole new system of liturgical classification was introduced. It tried to keep the effects of the older system, but make the classifications simpler and more clear. You cannot read the 1960 rubrics in the light of what came before except that it was an effort to have the same effect, without the same complications.

    Previously you had Ferias, Major Ferias, Simple feasts, Semi-Doubles, Doubles, Secondary Greater Doubles, Primary Greater Doubles, Secondary Doubles of the Second Class, Primary Doubles of the Second Class, Secondary Doubles of the First Class, Primary Doubles of the First Class, major Sundays of the Second Class, and Major Sundays of the First Class. The 1956 changes merely simplified this older system getting rid of many classifications. The 1960 system replaced it with four numbered classes of liturgical days and a table of precedence when there was a conflict among days of the same class.

    The equivalence is that :

    1st Class = Doubles of the First Class + Major Sundays of the First and Second Class (except Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinquagesima) + Privileged Major Ferias + Triduum + All Souls + Octave Days of Easter and Pentecost
    2nd Class = Doubles of the Second Class + a few Greater Doubles (the Holy Family, the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, and feasts of secondary local patrons) + Non privileged Major Ferias + Sundays not included above + Ferias of Advent from Dec 17-23
    3rd Class = Remaining Greater doubles and Semi-Doubles + Ferias of Lent + Ferias of Advent up through Dec 16 + Octave days of Christmas
    4th Class = Simple feasts (reduced to commemorations), BVM on Saturdays, Ferials except those of note

    In 1960 you now had days of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th class. The higher class always took precendece. When two days of the same class happened to concur or occur, one consulted the table of precedence (no. 91 in the 1960 Code of Rubrics). Generic charts for occurance and concurrence were created, but these are not 100% reliable. If you look at these charts alone, for instance, one finds that the Immaculate Conception would be transferred. The actual rubrics, however, are clear that this is not the case.

    Today, Dec 2 is St Bibiana, a 3rd class feast. It is also a day in Advent before Dec 17, so it is a 3rd class feria. Which is celebrated? The table of precedence puts Advent ferias at no. 25, and 3rd class universal feasts at no. 24. The feast is higher, so it takes precedence, and the feria would be omitted, except it is given a privilege so is commemorated.

    In fact the reason that during Advent you celebrate 3rd class feasts, but not during Lent is due to this table. 3rd class feasts are at no. 24. Ferias of Lent are at no. 22. Ferias of Advent through Dec 16 are at no. 25. Thus a 3rd class feast loses out to the Lenten feria, but takes precedence over the Advent feria, even though all of these are 3rd class.

    Back in September Ember Saturday (2nd Class) fell on Sept 21, which is the feast of St Matthew (2nd Class). St Matthew is at no. 16 on the list. The Ember Day is at no. 18. St Matthew takes the day.

    The same happens on Sunday. You have the occurrence of both the Second Sunday of Advent (1st class) and Immaculate Conception (1st class). The Sundays of Advent and Lent sit at no. 6 in the table. The Immaculate Conception (and Annunciation) sit at no. 4, so those feasts are higher and take precedence.

    The "rubrics" of the Missal were not changing up through the Novus Ordo, as you suggest. The texts of the missal and interlinear instructions did in 1964 and again in 1967. The rubrics that establish the calendar, commemorations, etc. were exactly the same as in July 1960.

    It is worth noting that the Code of Rubrics was attached to Novum Rubricarum, and was not actually part of the document, so if you're looking in NR (and it's a few paragraphs long) or Rubricarum instructum for these, you're not seeing the actual rubrics. That is a code which is 530 point long.


    Offline drew

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    Re: What feast on Dec. 8?
    « Reply #33 on: December 03, 2019, 03:20:09 PM »
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  • Drew,

    Rubricarius is correct, except one small point. The tweak started in 1960, not 1961. That was immaterial in practice, since the Immaculate Conception in 1960 was on a Thursday. Dec 8 was next a Sunday in 1963. So in 1963, the Second Sunday of Advent was in fact the Immaculate Conception with a commemoration of the Sunday. Were you to look up an ordo for the year 1963, it would show this.

    The 1960 Rubrics are very clear. The Immaculate Conception outranks the Second Sunday of Advent. In no. 91 of this set of rubrics, this could not be more clear.

    For Rubricarius to call the 1960 rubrics a "tweak" is inaccurate. It isn't really a tweak except in effect.

    In 1960 a whole new system of liturgical classification was introduced. It tried to keep the effects of the older system, but make the classifications simpler and more clear. You cannot read the 1960 rubrics in the light of what came before except that it was an effort to have the same effect, without the same complications.

    Previously you had Ferias, Major Ferias, Simple feasts, Semi-Doubles, Doubles, Secondary Greater Doubles, Primary Greater Doubles, Secondary Doubles of the Second Class, Primary Doubles of the Second Class, Secondary Doubles of the First Class, Primary Doubles of the First Class, major Sundays of the Second Class, and Major Sundays of the First Class. The 1956 changes merely simplified this older system getting rid of many classifications. The 1960 system replaced it with four numbered classes of liturgical days and a table of precedence when there was a conflict among days of the same class.

    The equivalence is that :

    1st Class = Doubles of the First Class + Major Sundays of the First and Second Class (except Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinquagesima) + Privileged Major Ferias + Triduum + All Souls + Octave Days of Easter and Pentecost
    2nd Class = Doubles of the Second Class + a few Greater Doubles (the Holy Family, the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, and feasts of secondary local patrons) + Non privileged Major Ferias + Sundays not included above + Ferias of Advent from Dec 17-23
    3rd Class = Remaining Greater doubles and Semi-Doubles + Ferias of Lent + Ferias of Advent up through Dec 16 + Octave days of Christmas
    4th Class = Simple feasts (reduced to commemorations), BVM on Saturdays, Ferials except those of note

    In 1960 you now had days of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th class. The higher class always took precendece. When two days of the same class happened to concur or occur, one consulted the table of precedence (no. 91 in the 1960 Code of Rubrics). Generic charts for occurance and concurrence were created, but these are not 100% reliable. If you look at these charts alone, for instance, one finds that the Immaculate Conception would be transferred. The actual rubrics, however, are clear that this is not the case.

    Today, Dec 2 is St Bibiana, a 3rd class feast. It is also a day in Advent before Dec 17, so it is a 3rd class feria. Which is celebrated? The table of precedence puts Advent ferias at no. 25, and 3rd class universal feasts at no. 24. The feast is higher, so it takes precedence, and the feria would be omitted, except it is given a privilege so is commemorated.

    In fact the reason that during Advent you celebrate 3rd class feasts, but not during Lent is due to this table. 3rd class feasts are at no. 24. Ferias of Lent are at no. 22. Ferias of Advent through Dec 16 are at no. 25. Thus a 3rd class feast loses out to the Lenten feria, but takes precedence over the Advent feria, even though all of these are 3rd class.

    Back in September Ember Saturday (2nd Class) fell on Sept 21, which is the feast of St Matthew (2nd Class). St Matthew is at no. 16 on the list. The Ember Day is at no. 18. St Matthew takes the day.

    The same happens on Sunday. You have the occurrence of both the Second Sunday of Advent (1st class) and Immaculate Conception (1st class). The Sundays of Advent and Lent sit at no. 6 in the table. The Immaculate Conception (and Annunciation) sit at no. 4, so those feasts are higher and take precedence.

    The "rubrics" of the Missal were not changing up through the Novus Ordo, as you suggest. The texts of the missal and interlinear instructions did in 1964 and again in 1967. The rubrics that establish the calendar, commemorations, etc. were exactly the same as in July 1960.

    It is worth noting that the Code of Rubrics was attached to Novum Rubricarum, and was not actually part of the document, so if you're looking in NR (and it's a few paragraphs long) or Rubricarum instructum for these, you're not seeing the actual rubrics. That is a code which is 530 point long.

    Thanks for the detailed reply.

    I received this reply from Rubricarius to my question asking the source of the "tweak" and its application to Indult communities:

    Quote
    Rubricarius said...

    Hello Drew,

    The 'tweak' in the New Code of Rubrics, which became effective from 1st January 1961, is found in General Rubrics, Chapter 3, No. 15. This gives the feast of the Immaculate Conception - and that feast alone - the right of precedence over the Sundays of Advent.

    So the only people who will transfer the feast of the Immaculate Conception this year are strict observance sedevacantists and the novus ordo - an odd pairing! (Having said that and not wishing to complicate the issue a number of different novus ordo countries and places will observe the feast on the Sunday.)

    The "strict observance sedevacantists" would reject the "tweak" in the rubrics that were established by Pius XII and move the feast of the Immaculate Conception.  The Novus Ordo would be following the current rubrics moving the feast.  I assume from this answer that Indultists should celebrate the Immaculate Conception and not the Advent Sunday although some are not doing this which I presume is because they want the calendars to coincide.  I think he called it a "tweak" because it is an exception to the new rule giving a higher rank to the Advent Sundays.

    Drew

     

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