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Author Topic: What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?  (Read 3802 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
« on: December 17, 2013, 11:45:05 AM »
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  • When Bp. Fellay withdrew the April 15, 2012 Doctrinal Declaration, What did he actually mean by that withdrawal?  Was it an utter rejection of the docuмent’s contents by the sspx SG?  Or did he simply “withdraw” the Declaration because of the difficulties he thought he might encounter in getting his confreres to accept the amended form of it as re-presented to the SG  in June 2012 by the Vatican. I have never understood this entirely.
    I am particularly interested  in Article III. Item 7 of the original Declaration, viz
      III,7. We declare that we recognise the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention to do what the Church does according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary Rituals legitimately promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John-Paul II.
    Do Fellay & Co. recognize the validity of the New Mass and Sacramentary Rituals, as promulgated by Paul VI and JPII?  And if ABL is alleged to have accepted them earlier, why should we make any fuss about that particular provision?  I am hearing traditional priests today, I think, saying that the New Mass is not valid, that it is intrinsically evil, and that we put our souls in danger by attending it.  If so, can it really be “valid?”
    In this connection, have Fellay & Co. made peace with the Ratzinger-generated idea that the New Mass should take precedence over the Old Mass?  Has Fellay said much, if anything, about “Ordinary” and “Extraordinary” forms of the Mass?  He may have, but my eyes glaze over reading transcripts of his sermons, and listening to audio copies of them I find unbearable.  So my attention span is exhausted pretty quickly, and I tend to miss a lot.


    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 01:10:55 PM »
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  • According to Fr Morgan in England he not only withdrew it but denounced it.

    Hollingsworth
    Quote
    What did he actually mean by that withdrawal? Was it an utter rejection of the docuмent’s contents by the sspx SG?


    Fr Morgan mention their District magazine would address this.


    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=25470&f=19&min=0&num=3
    Bishop Fellay Renounces Doctrinal Declaration:, Letter of Fr Morgan


    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 01:18:39 PM »
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  • Fr Morgan of course attacked the resistance.

    Quote
    .. a signed ‘Letter of Entreaty’ has appeared on its website which attacks the Society in no uncertain terms. Addressed to ‘Fr Morgan and the Clergy of the British District,’ the open letter, dated 21st May 2013, accuses the Society of having deviated from its essential mission of fidelity to Catholic Tradition and opposition to Modernism due to the betrayal of its liberal leadership!

    Ignoring the fact that there has not been a false deal with modernist Rome, and in spite of Bishop Fellay's public withdrawal in Ireland of the questionable April 2012 ‘Doctrinal Declaration,’ the dialectical letter pretends there is no option for us now but to show true leadership and to follow its proponents in seceding from the Society!



    http://www.therecusant.com/apps/blog/show/26824729-fr-morgan-s-response
    Quote
    Fr. Morgan's Response
     Posted by The Editor on May 28, 2013 at 10:10 AM   
    Fr. Morgan's response to the Letter of Entreaty can now be read on the SSPX British District website.
    .
    Whilst we differ with him in some respects, we are pleased to note that Fr. Morgan has now publicly stated that to have made a purely practical agreement with Rome, as was being proposed last year, would have been "false" and that the April 2012 Doctrinal Declaration was "questionable."
    .
    Furthermore, we note that he says that he does not believe "'that the SSPX is now a sinking ship' which is beyond repair." Does he mean by this that he views the SSPX as a sinking ship which is not quite beyond repair, as he appears to imply?

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 01:37:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    Was it an utter rejection of the docuмent’s contents by the sspx SG?

    No.  At most he said it was subtle and hence hard to understand.  He does not fundamentally find anything wrong with it.  Here is what he said at the Angelus conference on Oct. 12/13 as reported by John Vennari:

    "The [April 15, 2012] text we presented to Rome was a very, shall we say, delicate text that was supposed to be understood correctly; it was supposed to be read with a big principle which was leading the whole thing. This big principle was no novelty in the Church: "The Holy Ghost has not been promised to St. Peter and his Successor in such a way that through a new revelation the Pope would teach something new, but under his help, the pope would the Pope would saintly conserve and faithfully transmit the deposit of the Faith ." It belongs to the definition of infallibility [from Vatican I]. That was the principle, the base of the whole docuмent, which excludes from the start any kind of novelty.

    "And so take any kind of sentences from the text without this principle is just to take sentences that have never been our thinking and our life. These phrases in themselves are ambiguous, so to take away the ambiguity we wanted to put [in] this principle [from Vatican I]. Unfortunately, maybe that was too subtle and that’s why we withdrew that text, because it was not clear enough as it was written."

    Offline JPaul

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 02:05:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    "And so take any kind of sentences from the text without this principle is just to take sentences that have never been our thinking and our life. These phrases in themselves are ambiguous, so to take away the ambiguity we wanted to put [in] this principle [from Vatican I]. Unfortunately, maybe that was too subtle and that’s why we withdrew that text, because it was not clear enough as it was written."
     


    Yes they are ambiguous and unclear because they use "novel" language to refuse novelty.  Is you head spinning yet?

    Anyway why does it matter?  He is irrelevant now.


    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 02:26:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote
    "And so take any kind of sentences from the text without this principle is just to take sentences that have never been our thinking and our life. These phrases in themselves are ambiguous, so to take away the ambiguity we wanted to put [in] this principle [from Vatican I]. Unfortunately, maybe that was too subtle and that’s why we withdrew that text, because it was not clear enough as it was written."
     


    Yes they are ambiguous and unclear because they use "novel" language to refuse novelty.  Is you head spinning yet?

    Anyway why does it matter?  He is irrelevant now.


    Very true. I have no doubt some still speak of 'getting rid of' Bishop Fellay. I believe Bishop Fellay will see out his term as Superior General.


    Bishop Fellay is irrelevant. He belongs to the Church of Fellay. The resistance continues the work of Archbishop Lefebvre.
     

    Offline JPaul

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 02:30:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote
    "And so take any kind of sentences from the text without this principle is just to take sentences that have never been our thinking and our life. These phrases in themselves are ambiguous, so to take away the ambiguity we wanted to put [in] this principle [from Vatican I]. Unfortunately, maybe that was too subtle and that’s why we withdrew that text, because it was not clear enough as it was written."
     


    Yes they are ambiguous and unclear because they use "novel" language to refuse novelty.  Is you head spinning yet?

    Anyway why does it matter?  He is irrelevant now.


    Very true. I have no doubt some still speak of 'getting rid of' Bishop Fellay. I believe Bishop Fellay will see out his term as Superior General.


    Bishop Fellay is irrelevant.
     


    He has changed and formed the Society in his own image and when he exits it will carry on in its re-oriented form and nature.

    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 02:37:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote
    "And so take any kind of sentences from the text without this principle is just to take sentences that have never been our thinking and our life. These phrases in themselves are ambiguous, so to take away the ambiguity we wanted to put [in] this principle [from Vatican I]. Unfortunately, maybe that was too subtle and that’s why we withdrew that text, because it was not clear enough as it was written."
     


    Yes they are ambiguous and unclear because they use "novel" language to refuse novelty.  Is you head spinning yet?

    Anyway why does it matter?  He is irrelevant now.


    Very true. I have no doubt some still speak of 'getting rid of' Bishop Fellay. I believe Bishop Fellay will see out his term as Superior General.


    Bishop Fellay is irrelevant.
     


    He has changed and formed the Society in his own image and when he exits it will carry on in its re-oriented form and nature.


    Of course. Who ever replaces him will continue on the same way. The SSPX betrayed Archbishop Lefebvre and Tradition.


    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 02:57:34 PM »
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  • Those who continue to defend Bishop Fellay are defending the indefensible.

    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 03:08:02 PM »
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  • It's worth listening to the Fr Pfeiffer sermons. He states clearly the SSPX is dead.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 03:12:31 PM »
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  • Thank you, EM, for this:

    Bp. F:
    Quote
    "The [April 15, 2012] text we presented to Rome was a very, shall we say, delicate text that was supposed to be understood correctly;

    Of course, if the text was not understood correctly, responsibility for it's lack of clarity may be laid directly at the feet of Fellay.  It was supposed to be understood correctly, but it was not.  The SG is not capable of drafting a "delicate text."  Nor is he capable, obviously, of writing a straightfoward, clearly understood text.  After all, he did write it.  Can he not, then, explain it?  The fact that questions like mine remain to this day are testimony to the possibility that he deliberately obscured items in the text, or that he is linguistically challenged.
    Bp. F:
    Quote
    (The text) was supposed to be read with a big principle which was leading the whole thing. This big principle was no novelty in the Church: "The Holy Ghost has not been promised to St. Peter and his Successor in such a way that through a new revelation the Pope would teach something new, but under his help, the pope would the Pope would saintly conserve and faithfully transmit the deposit of the Faith ." It belongs to the definition of infallibility [from Vatican I]. That was the principle, the base of the whole docuмent, which excludes from the start any kind of novelty.
    "
    Why is it, after reading this passage, in explanation of the "big principle," I still do not understand what the "big principle" is?  I'm sorry, but unless the following was a series of transcription typos, I have no idea what the following means, viz but under his help, the pope would the Pope would saintly conserve and faithfully transmit the deposit of the Faith ." It belongs to the definition of infallibility [from Vatican I]
    What does "saintly conserve" mean.  
    What does "but under his help, the pope would the Pope would..."  Was Fellay stuttering?
    I have to conclude that 1) I'm too old and my brain is going 2) The text of his remarks has been mistranslated 3) Understanding the "big principle" is beyond my ken 4) or this is just mind-numbing twaddle.
    Bp. F:
    Quote
    And so take any kind of sentences from the text (of the April 15 Declaration) without this principle is just to take sentences that have never been our thinking and our life.

    Fellay needs to provide us with a key to "big principle." How else will we ever know what has never been "our thinking" and "our life."  
    I suspect strongly that I am still in possession of my intellectual faculties, and that what Fellay spoke in October is just a load of crap!


    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 03:18:54 PM »
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  • Hollingsworth

    Quote
    I suspect strongly that I am still in possession of my intellectual faculties, and that what Fellay spoke in October is just a load of crap!


    I have no doubt you are in possession of your intellectual faculties and that Bishop Fellay spoke a load of crap. As time goes by more and more, who still assist at the Church of Fellay chapels will no longer by scandalized by his actions. Many are already liberals.

    Unlike Bishop Fellay, you are an intellectual and your contribution is fantastic. Very few are that interested in Bishop Fellay though. I don't believe he is evil but is a liberal.He always has been.

    Pray for him.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 03:26:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    According to Fr Morgan in England he not only withdrew it but denounced it.

    Hollingsworth
    Quote:
    What did he actually mean by that withdrawal? Was it an utter rejection of the docuмent’s contents by the sspx SG?


    Fr Morgan mention their District magazine would address this.


    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=25470&f=19&min=0&num=3
    Bishop Fellay Renounces Doctrinal Declaration:, Letter of Fr Morgan


    Hold it! +Fellay "denounced it?"  Fr. Morgan actually said that Bp. F had denounced the Declaration, not just withdrawn it?  John's post above was dated 26th of June.  That was almost 6 months ago.   Has the UK District magazine come out with this denunciation from the great one?  Where is it?  Please link us to it.  Fellay did not denounce it in Kansas City on Oct. 13, did he?  He talked about a "delicate text" which was supposed to be understood by all of us , etc. That certainly does not amount to a denunciation of the Declaration.  A clear denunciation woul relieve some of our doubts and anxieties anyway.  Meanwhile, it's time for my medications.

    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 03:31:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    Quote
    According to Fr Morgan in England he not only withdrew it but denounced it.

    Hollingsworth
    Quote:
    What did he actually mean by that withdrawal? Was it an utter rejection of the docuмent’s contents by the sspx SG?


    Fr Morgan mention their District magazine would address this.


    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=25470&f=19&min=0&num=3
    Bishop Fellay Renounces Doctrinal Declaration:, Letter of Fr Morgan


    Hold it! +Fellay "denounced it?"  Fr. Morgan actually said that Bp. F had denounced the Declaration, not just withdrawn it?  John's post above was dated 26th of June.  That was almost 6 months ago.   Has the UK District magazine come out with this denunciation from the great one?  Where is it?  Please link us to it.  Fellay did not denounce it in Kansas City on Oct. 13, did he?  He talked about a "delicate text" which was supposed to be understood by all of us , etc. That certainly does not amount to a denunciation of the Declaration.  A clear denunciation woul relieve some of our doubts and anxieties anyway.  Meanwhile, it's time for my medications.


    Mater Dei magazine is not online nor do I subscribe to it. My understanding is 'Cassini' was to share an audio on this forum of the Bishop Fellay conference in Dublin. This was also months ago. According to Fr Morgan, Bishop Fellay withdrew this docuмent publicly in Ireland. It's rather laughable.

    Offline John Grace

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    What did Fellay mean when he withdrew the April 15 Declaration?
    « Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 03:44:00 PM »
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  • http://www.therecusant.com/resistance-objections
    Quote
    How can you be so sure that the SSPX was taken over? Where’s your proof? Give me chapter and verse on exactly how this came about.

    There is a certain amount of interesting evidence out there which points to how it most likely happened (GREC, for example), but ultimately how it happened is not what matters. What matters is that it has happened and that it has happened is beyond doubt. One does not need to know how a man died in order to be sure that he is dead. The old, ‘no-compromise,’ doctrinally sound SSPX, the SSPX of Archbishop Lefebvre’s day, is dead and gone. That much is beyond serious dispute. The new SSPX is a very different creature indeed. The old SSPX would never have declared that Vatican II “enlightens and deepens” the Faith, that “the causes” of errors are in the Council, that the new Mass was “legitimately promulgated”, and so much more besides. Archbishop Lefebvre condemned the ‘oath of allegiance’ whereas Bishop Fellay says that he accepts it. The old SSPX raised up Bishop Williamson; the new SSPX marginalised him, slandered him publicly and then cast him out.

    You refer above to the April 15th Doctrinal Declaration. But Bishop Fellay has said that he withdrew it, so that’s no longer an issue. You’re just trying to dredge up the past.
    What Bishop Fellay says when he thinks that no publicly available recording of his words is being made and what he officially ‘says’ to the world (Rome included) via DICI are not always the same, but we will let that pass. Even assuming that his ‘withdrawal’ is ‘official’, it is clear from his own words that what he is referring to is the docuмent’s usefulness in reaching an agreement. What he is not referring to is the docuмent’s contents, and it is precisely the contents that are a problem, not its usefulness (which had already been killed by Rome when they turned it down in June 2012, long before he ‘withdrew’ it the following August).

    But you cannot be sure that Bishop Fellay still believes what he said in the April 15th Declaration. Or do you think you can read his mind!?
    Firstly, supposing that the April 15th Declaration no longer represents Bishop Fellay’s position, how much confidence can we repose in a Superior General who is capable of changing his doctrinal position with his dirty linen? Secondly, the very fact that Bishop Fellay has insisted so often that the docuмent is in the past and no longer an issue whilst refusing to address its contents surely points to his continued belief in those contents. If he no longer believes what he said he believed in April 2012, why go to all the trouble of dodging questions and playing with words (“withdrew”, “renounced”) when a simple statement to that effect would quieten all opposition?

    Thirdly, a careful reading of his June 27th 2013 statement shows that the same ideas are still officially in force (E.g. Vatican II may ‘cause’ errors but it does it actually contain any errors? The New Mass isn’t as good as the old Mass, but it’s not actually evil or illegitimate per se; et al.)
    Finally, consider the fact that even if Bishop Fellay had genuinely seen the error of his ways and repented (both in word and action), and we believed him, the serious implications of his actions would remain. For example: how could a son of Archbishop Lefebvre ever have signed, let alone composed and kept subsequently secret, so scandalous a docuмent? Serious questions deserve serious answers.