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Author Topic: Wessex was Right  (Read 4269 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Wessex was Right
« on: December 08, 2013, 02:02:59 PM »
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  • CI-

    In a recent post, Wessex had opined that the reason there was not more of an upheaval from the rank/file laymen (and perhaps clergy) was because they were content within their cozy enclaves.

    Recently, I had a conversation with a long-time SSPXer, who as much as admitted the same:

    "We have fought for so long, and come so far, that I m just not willing to start over; I'm old and tired; I'm just not there."

    Without realizing it, this person evinced bad disposition by showing a disregard for truth, by basically saying, "I don't care if the resistance is right or not."

    This is the cause of complacency and willful ignorance which, for the first time, I heard firsthand.

    For many years Bishop Williamson warned against this complacency.

    He warned (and still warns) that if this complacency set in, the faith could be stolen from us.

    And now we have schools, churches, camps, retreat houses, seminaries, pilgrimages, and the semblance of normalcy.

    As I said recently, there are very few honest people left in the world.

    Comfort, ease, and the lure of "normalcy" vs truth (and the inconvenience it imposes in a world ruled by Satan, who wants to stamp it out).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 02:07:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    CI-

    In a recent post, Wessex had opined that the reason there was not more of an upheaval from the rank/file laymen (and perhaps clergy) was because they were content within their cozy enclaves.

    Recently, I had a conversation with a long-time SSPXer, who as much as admitted the same:

    "We have fought for so long, and come so far, that I m just not willing to start over; I'm just not there."

    Without realizing it, this person evinced bad disposition by showing a disregard for truth, by basically saying, "I don't care if the resistance is right or not."

    This is the cause of complacency and willful ignorance which, for the first time, I heard firsthand.

    For many years Bishop Williamson warned against this complacency.

    He warned (and still warns) that if this complacency set in, the faith could be stolen from us.

    And now we have schools, churches, camps, retreat houses, seminaries, pilgrimages, and the semblance of normalcy.

    As I said recently, there are very few honest people left in the world.

    Comfort, ease, and the lure of "normalcy" vs truth (and the inconvenience it imposes in a world ruled by Satan, who want to stamp it out).



     :applause:

    THIS IS EXACTLY IT! That's why Saint Michael's went down without even a whimper.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline John Grace

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 02:36:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    CI-

    In a recent post, Wessex had opined that the reason there was not more of an upheaval from the rank/file laymen (and perhaps clergy) was because they were content within their cozy enclaves.

    Recently, I had a conversation with a long-time SSPXer, who as much as admitted the same:

    "We have fought for so long, and come so far, that I m just not willing to start over; I'm old and tired; I'm just not there."

    Without realizing it, this person evinced bad disposition by showing a disregard for truth, by basically saying, "I don't care if the resistance is right or not."

    This is the cause of complacency and willful ignorance which, for the first time, I heard firsthand.

    For many years Bishop Williamson warned against this complacency.

    He warned (and still warns) that if this complacency set in, the faith could be stolen from us.

    And now we have schools, churches, camps, retreat houses, seminaries, pilgrimages, and the semblance of normalcy.

    As I said recently, there are very few honest people left in the world.

    Comfort, ease, and the lure of "normalcy" vs truth (and the inconvenience it imposes in a world ruled by Satan, who wants to stamp it out).


    Wessex is correct.  :applause: SeanJohnson could easily be writing about the Irish SSPX District. Craggy Island. After Fr Couture left it started to decline. Many are complacent.

    Bishop Williamson spoke of complacency often. In my opinion it is a feigned ignorance.

    Offline Wessex

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 03:01:37 PM »
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  • They are not even staying with the SSPX out of complacency or tiredness. Some are returning to the conciliar church via the indult and are raising their children and seeing them married there. When you are told by an old lady outside the London Oratory that she is only there for the old Mass, one realises traditionalism and preserving the faith means different things to different people. We forget such a variety of inclinations has always personified the Society and it was to be expected that so many of the laity would not feel or understand Bp. Williamson's and Fr. Pfeiffer's sense of betrayal. Their level of trust would not be tested beyond their pastor's smile.  

    Offline John Grace

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 03:04:43 PM »
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  • It's worth listening to this again.Fr Morgan touches upon complacency.

    TR Media: Fr. Paul Morgan: my vocation and course of ministry, with Stephen Heiner, 2010


    Offline Wessex

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 03:39:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    It's worth listening to this again.Fr Morgan touches upon complacency.

    TR Media: Fr. Paul Morgan: my vocation and course of ministry, with Stephen Heiner, 2010




    Thank you, John. Irony in abundance here with Fr. Morgan talking in 2010 about the strong faith of converts of which he was one. Even the converts are re-converting it seems because of lack of "resilience" and "combat fatigue"!

    Stephen Heiner and Bp. Sanborn are visiting London and Durham before Christmas and I will post a notice if anyone is interested.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 04:10:48 PM »
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  • When you have been protected and insulated from Rome for so long, you begin to think one of two things:

    1) Either you begin to think the SSPX is indefectible (in which case, it is a priori ridiculous that there could be any basis for resistance to the new direction in Menzingen);

    or

    2) In the opposite vein, you lose true belief there really is a state of general spiritual necessity caused by the apostasy in Rome.

    In both instances, you are fertile ground for lending support to a merely practical accord (along the lines of that which the SSPX holds out future hope for, as evinced by the persistence of the 6 conditions; the 2012 General Chapter declaration; paragraph 11 of the June 27, 2013 Declaration of the Three SSPX Bishops; etc).

    For a good (but sad) example of this latter phenomena, read this (and as you do so, ask yourself, was this interview given by Bishop Fellay?):

    (Excerpts):


    Why I Favor Our Superiors Legalizing Our Situation In The Church
    Interview with Fr. Paul Aulagnier


    Q. Do you think that the same reasons would be valuable today? Or are there any dangers in waiting for a reconciliation?

      A. Today, the conditions would not allow for what was done in June of 1988. Several of my confreres will, perhaps, hit the roof when they become aware of this interview. It does not matter. I am free to state my judgment and I never liked yes men.

      Why would the consecrations not be reasonable today? Because many Romans have changed and now acknowledge the very difficult situation in which the Church finds herself. Cardinal Castrillon’s Mass of May 24, 2003 is not burning straw. This is the fruit of a long evolution which began, it seems, around 1992, with the publication of a series of books of Cardinal Ratzinger and a series of conferences, homilies, and an interview with Cardinal Stickler. At St. Mary-Major, Cardinal Castrillon spoke for the Church by recalling the "right of citizenship" of the Mass of St. Pius V.

      Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia vivit is also very important. Additionally, I think that there is a danger in seeing this conflict last for ages. The Church is a visible and hierarchical society. If one lives too long in an autarchy, one ends up losing the meaning of what a hierarchy is. We are thus in danger, the time passing and the opposition remaining, of forgetting Rome and organizing ourselves more and more outside of Rome. This needs to be acknowledged.

      This is why we must always remain in contact with Rome, not only for them to progress in the right direction, but unceasingly to remind ourselves of their good memory. We are of the flock. If we remain satisfied with our situation, then there is a danger of "psychological schism." The young people are of my opinion. I call it as it is. The SSPX leadership thinks I exaggerate, but our younger generations have never known a normal ecclesiastical situation. Thus I have accepted "this Canadian exile" for my ideas.

    Q. Why do you believe that the reconciliation of Bishop Rifan and his priests is a positive step not only for the traditionalists of Campos, but for every traditional Catholic?

    A. One reason is the danger of schism which I just expressed. Secondly, my friendship with these heroic priests has led me to experience their traditional parishes and their numerous works. I have especially seen even here the problem of the Mass. The attitude of Rome is new. Rome gave the Mass to our friends, the priests of Campos. And this freely and without condition. Rome recognizes their right, their facultas to celebrate the Traditional Mass in all the churches of their apostolic administration. I studied their statutes at length. So, for me, these things are going in the right direction in favor of the Mass.

      The Campos agreement did not require the compromises made by the Ecclesia Dei institutes in 1988. Campos received a frank recognition of the right to the Tridentine Mass without having to recognize that the new Mass is "legitimate and orthodox." They were simply asked to recognize the validity of the new Mass. Archbishop Lefebvre always recognized and taught that the new Mass was valid. There is a great difference between "validity," "legitimacy," and "orthodoxy." Something can be valid without being legitimate and orthodox.

    Q. Many priests of your Society, including Bishop Fellay, have praised the new encyclical of the Holy Father Ecclesia de Eucharistia. Do you consider the new encyclical to be a positive sign on the doctrinal and liturgical level?

    A. Yes and greatly so. This encyclical is truly a positive sign on the doctrinal and liturgical level. One sees here an authority that is newly aware of the drama which affects the Church and her liturgy. The liturgical reform, such as it was conceived and applied after the council, has denatured the liturgy by not respecting its end. The liturgy is essentially worship rendered to God. The priest offers, in the name of the people, "for the living and the dead," for the people who are united to this action, the sacrifice of Christ which renders to God "all honor and all glory.

      The Catholic liturgy has a transcendent dimension. It orients us toward God. It subjects us to God. There is a similarity between the Roman liturgy and the heavenly liturgy. Read the Book of the Apocalypse of St. John and you will see that heavenly worship is directed toward the Father and the Lamb of God, the paschal Lamb to whom the angels and the elect sing and magnify the power, the divinity, the glory, the sanctity of God. The Sanctus of our Mass is a divine praise. All this is, for many, lost, so much so.

      The Catholic hierarchy is finally aware of it. It is never too late in order to do good. It wants to correct the "shadows." How can one not rejoice at this? This is yet another reason why I favor our superiors legalizing our situation in the Church. It is necessary today to be inside with a recognized right of the Mass of St. Pius V on the altars of Christianity. One must have the sense of what is possible. To ask too much is to ask for nothing. The Holy Father has spoken. We must help and participate in the liturgical restoration in the Church.

    An Apostolic Administration

    Q. In the context of these positive stages, is the reconciliation of the SSPX with Rome possible in the near future?

    A. One Mass does not establish a custom. Thus I will speak about restoration of normal relations between Catholics of goodwill. This restoration is more than desirable. It is necessary. In a month? In three years? I do not know. Yet the more that time passes, the more the restoration becomes urgent. But again, minds must be prepared.

    Q. Do you think that the recent transfer of Bishop Williamson to Latin America has a link with the eventual reconciliation of the SSPX and Rome?

    A. I believe it was simply routine. One should not imagine conflicts or hidden reasons where none exist. Granted, Bishop Williamson is one of the most firm opponents to a reconciliation with Rome. But that has nothing to do with his transfer to Argentina. He will likely remain opposed in La Reja. He is suspicious in nature. And suspicion leads to error. He thinks that "the Romans," as he likes to say, have not changed. It is his opinion. This opinion is dominant with Bishop Fellay today, but will it be tomorrow?

    Q. Considering your friendship and close proximity with Archbishop Lefebvre, do you think that he would have accepted the offer of reconciliation that Rome had recently presented to the SSPX in the line of the accords of Campos?

    A. I sincerely believe that today Archbishop Lefebvre would have accepted an accord with Rome. He would have been, perhaps, more cautious and demanding on certain points than Bishop Rangel, but the archbishop would have gone to the end this time. The requirements Rome demanded of the Campos traditionalists are these: the recognition of Pope John Paul II as the legitimate Successor of Peter, the recognition of the Second Vatican Council interpreted in the light of Tradition, the recognition of the validity of the Novus Ordo Missae, and a free discussion of the council that avoided dialectic and polemic. Archbishop Lefebvre had already accepted this in 1988. One should not be afraid to say this, and I wish someone would tell me why they should not be accepted today.



    The moral of the story is this:

    Complacency is punished by reunion with unconverted Rome (which tends towards heresy).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Zeitun

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 04:14:07 PM »
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  • It is possible to save one's soul without the Mass but it is impossible to save one's soul without the True Faith.


    Offline John Anthony

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 04:23:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    CI-

    In a recent post, Wessex had opined that the reason there was not more of an upheaval from the rank/file laymen (and perhaps clergy) was because they were content within their cozy enclaves.

    Recently, I had a conversation with a long-time SSPXer, who as much as admitted the same:

    "We have fought for so long, and come so far, that I m just not willing to start over; I'm old and tired; I'm just not there."

    Without realizing it, this person evinced bad disposition by showing a disregard for truth, by basically saying, "I don't care if the resistance is right or not."

    This is the cause of complacency and willful ignorance which, for the first time, I heard firsthand.

    For many years Bishop Williamson warned against this complacency.

    He warned (and still warns) that if this complacency set in, the faith could be stolen from us.

    And now we have schools, churches, camps, retreat houses, seminaries, pilgrimages, and the semblance of normalcy.

    As I said recently, there are very few honest people left in the world.

    Comfort, ease, and the lure of "normalcy" vs truth (and the inconvenience it imposes in a world ruled by Satan, who wants to stamp it out).


    Dear Mr. Johnson,

    Please let us know when you find two.

    The fewness even among the old-timers is in my view rather surprising, since they were the products of +Williamson's rectorship.

    I think that he was often away from the seminary; perhaps that has had something to do with it.

    I also think that the Frenchified U.S. District has educated more than the seminarians.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 04:27:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Anthony
    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    CI-

    In a recent post, Wessex had opined that the reason there was not more of an upheaval from the rank/file laymen (and perhaps clergy) was because they were content within their cozy enclaves.

    Recently, I had a conversation with a long-time SSPXer, who as much as admitted the same:

    "We have fought for so long, and come so far, that I m just not willing to start over; I'm old and tired; I'm just not there."

    Without realizing it, this person evinced bad disposition by showing a disregard for truth, by basically saying, "I don't care if the resistance is right or not."

    This is the cause of complacency and willful ignorance which, for the first time, I heard firsthand.

    For many years Bishop Williamson warned against this complacency.

    He warned (and still warns) that if this complacency set in, the faith could be stolen from us.

    And now we have schools, churches, camps, retreat houses, seminaries, pilgrimages, and the semblance of normalcy.

    As I said recently, there are very few honest people left in the world.

    Comfort, ease, and the lure of "normalcy" vs truth (and the inconvenience it imposes in a world ruled by Satan, who wants to stamp it out).


    Dear Mr. Johnson,

    Please let us know when you find two.

    The fewness even among the old-timers is in my view rather surprising, since they were the products of +Williamson's rectorship.

    I think that he was often away from the seminary; perhaps that has had something to do with it.

    I also think that the Frenchified U.S. District has educated more than the seminarians.



    John Anthony-

    Sorry if I was not clear:

    This was a layman, not a priest.

    But I do appreciate your admission that the seminary formation today is quite different than it once was.

    Sincerely,

    Sean
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline JPaul

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 05:13:03 PM »
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  • John Anthony,
    Quote
    I also think that the Frenchified U.S. District has educated more than the seminarians.


    Quite so, and many into the new direction and spiritual sensibilities.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 07:29:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    John Anthony,
    Quote
    I also think that the Frenchified U.S. District has educated more than the seminarians.


    Quite so, and many into the new direction and spiritual sensibilities.



    Yes, when you express it this way, it's easier to understand:




    The nSSPX faithful were "French-fried" in a batch process.


    We are the few loose "potato strings" who fell out of the basket.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 02:12:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Recently, I had a conversation with a long-time SSPXer, who as much as admitted the same:

    "We have fought for so long, and come so far, that I m just not willing to start over; I'm old and tired; I'm just not there."


    Yep. Us, too, though some time ago, I'm afraid. I suppose if they're "just not there," they are laying down their cross and make their fate. As Frank would say, let their conscience be their god. Personally, I'm sick of their whiny, paranoid crap, especially after they were publically humiliated by the one from whom they wanted acceptance (note: NOT Our Lord, but this lower-case sad excuse of a bishop whose name sounds like TiLorenzo, and who is a sack of dung —bet that last clue gave him away. OOPS). You'd think that would help people see the light, but instead it did the OPPOSITE. "Oh, whine whine whine, I just want to be a Lutheran since they aren't considered schismatic by 'TiLorenzo'." (Name obscured for privacy) FINE: GO BE A LUTHERAN! It's easy: WALK OUT THE DOOR.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/PVrEwCa8nSA[/youtube]

    /rant
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline ggreg

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 04:33:34 AM »
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  • It's not exactly a huge revelation from Wessex.  I suggested the same months ago.  It is the fundamental flaw of the resistance and why it is doomed to never have a significant impact.

    The resistance cannot offer the majority of Trads, or even a significant minority, the sacraments because you simply don't have enough priests, or any realistic prospect of getting them, nor the finances to build churches.

    People are not massive risk taking gamblers who are going to risk their sanity and the harmony and stability of their family travelling miles to mass or moving halfway across the country.  Only loonies or singletons, with nothing to lose, are going to do that.  Most people make weighted decisions based on considering the pluses and minuses of action versus inaction.

    Yes, there are risks of staying put in what they might feel is a slightly compromised SSPX but there are risks associated with joining the resistance too.  The SSPX are not corrupting their children with porn and free-love so there is no compelling reason to act.  The threat is minor, nuanced even, and might be clarified or reduced or increased depending on what Bishop Fellay says or does.  However, there is a significant risk if they change their whole life around to support the resistance, that their wife and children will judge them to be religious crackpots with no sense of prudence or responsibility.  A bit like that Trad nutter from San Francisco who dragged his family to Portugal in the 1970s, anticipating the chastisement, and as a result 9 out of 10 of them lost their faith altogether.

    Every Trad knows a family like this where the nutty fervour of one of the parents has destroyed the harmony of the family and caused half, or more than half, of the children to lapse.  So people want to be prudent, just as they were when coming to tradition in the first place.  The SSPX took a while to build.  If the resistance can make a rip roaring success of itself, then numbers will increase, which will give people confidence to join etc.  The question is, can you get that critical mass and momentum going.  I think the last year or two shows that the answer is definitely, no.

    There is a recent thread on this board about a marriage breakdown over someone becoming a Sedevacantist.  Any married couple who don't see eye to eye on the Resistance's arguments or simply disagree about staying home alone or making a 300 mile round trip to church (in a basement), are going to stay at the SSPX and see what happens.

    The old man has a point.  Life has taught him not to chase unicorns.  He has seen these sorts of splits and disaffections before and the centre has held.  The Cassandras who shouted the loudest were not correct.  He does not think this coup d'état will work and as a man getting old myself, I agree with him.

    Finally, if it is in the nature of people to seek a comfortable status quo where they have the mass and the sacraments, albeit with the occasional compromise, which might irritate them a little but they can cope with it, then the resistance itself will sooner or later face exactly the same problem.

    Offline McFiggly

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    Wessex was Right
    « Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 06:37:48 AM »
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  • I disagree with ggreg's assessment. I do not think that it's a matter of lack of resources or resolve. I think the problem is in theology of the SSPX which it has had from the start, and which doomed it to this eventual lethargy.

    If SSPX had a strict sedevacantist position they would not, I believe, be experiencing this dwindling of resolve. Built into the sedevacantist position is the idea that you have the Faith and they don't, you are fighting the good fight and they are fighting against it.

    Quote from: 2 Timothy 4:7
    I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.


    How can you weary in your fight against Rome when you have this position? The only way you can weary of that fight is if you lose the Faith itself, for as long as you have the Faith you are the enemy of the pretenders occupying Rome.

    The SSPX, however, are fighting a totally different fight. They aren't in a war against Rome, they are in negotiations with it. It's far easier to weary of negotiations than of war; the aim of war is clear and the stakes are high, but negotiations are ambiguous, the aims are being constantly pulled back and forth with compromise and the stakes aren't exactly clear. The SSPX aren't trying to rescue the Faith from heresy, as the sedevacantists are, they are only trying to preserve "Tradition", which is ambiguous. The eagerness to fight for the cause of Faith comes directly from God, but the desire to preserve "Tradition" comes from nostalgia and a fondness for your ancestors and their ways.

    As soon as the people of the SSPX realize that the situation is of much higher import than ensuring that there are only altar boys and not altar girls, and that the Mass is in Latin and not in the vernacular, then they will find their courage again.