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Author Topic: Was Lienart Really a Mason?  (Read 18441 times)

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Offline Comrade

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Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
« Reply #285 on: February 24, 2023, 05:11:55 PM »
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  • Wrong.  Please read 21-28 of the link you just posted.  He can say anything he wants about what he "intended" to do or not to do.  It matters nothing.  St. Thomas refutes every objection, teaching clearly that the intention to simply perform the rite as Catholics perform is all that's required, and a perverse intention on the part of the minister means nothing.  That book makes the same distinction I've been making and assigns terms to it, direct vs. reflexive intention ... the schizophrenic double intention.
    If we had only had said "STOP, what does the Summa say?" We could have avoided all this nonsense. Maybe Mathew can rewrite the code to always reference this booklet anytime the the words "intention" and "Sacraments" come up in another thread.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #286 on: February 24, 2023, 07:08:42 PM »
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  • Wrong.  Please read 21-28 of the link you just posted.  He can say anything he wants about what he "intended" to do or not to do.  It matters nothing.  St. Thomas refutes every objection, teaching clearly that the intention to simply perform the rite as Catholics perform is all that's required, and a perverse intention on the part of the minister means nothing.  That book makes the same distinction I've been making and assigns terms to it, direct vs. reflexive intention ... the schizophrenic double intention.

    Sorry, but you shouldn’t have stopped reading at page 28. Starting at the next page (29), the author explains how the minister of the sacrament CAN make the sacrament invalid if he “deliberately excludes the intention of doing what the Church does.” He also uses Saint Thomas to back this up: 

    “The minister of the sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is, and in the words which he utters the intention of the Church is expressed.  This intention suffices for the perfection of the sacrament unless the contrary is externally expressed on the part of the minister or the recipient of the sacrament.” --- ST III, Q. 64, Art. 8, ad. 2. (Saint Thomas Aquinas)”
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #287 on: February 24, 2023, 07:18:33 PM »
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  • Sorry, but you shouldn’t have stopped reading at page 28. Starting at the next page (29), the author explains how the minister of the sacrament CAN make the sacrament invalid if he “deliberately excludes the intention of doing what the Church does.” He also uses Saint Thomas to back this up:

    :facepalm: ... you guys still can't read English, intention to do what the Church DOES, and deliberately rejects needing to intend what the Church INTENDS, i.e. the Sacramental effect.  READ the several pages of St. Thomas Aquinas quotes for crying out loud.

    Read it and repeat to yourself, DO what the Church DOES, DO what teh Church DOES ...

    Unbelievable.

    I guess I'll have to come back here and post long sections from it, but I guess there's no much I can down when people lack basic reading comprehension skills because they're filtering thoughts and concepts using confirmation bias.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #288 on: February 24, 2023, 08:14:41 PM »
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  • CI won't let me down thumb Ladislaus. Doesn't even tell me I can't, just gives me a blank page when I try. So: Ladislaus, quit having such a pathologically fragile ego and take your own advice. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #289 on: February 24, 2023, 08:33:35 PM »
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  • :facepalm: ... you guys still can't read English, intention to do what the Church DOES, and deliberately rejects needing to intend what the Church INTENDS, i.e. the Sacramental effect.  READ the several pages of St. Thomas Aquinas quotes for crying out loud.

    Read it and repeat to yourself, DO what the Church DOES, DO what teh Church DOES ...

    Unbelievable.

    I guess I'll have to come back here and post long sections from it, but I guess there's no much I can down when people lack basic reading comprehension skills because they're filtering thoughts and concepts using confirmation bias.


    Maybe you’re still living on the flat Earth. :laugh1: Here on the global Earth, words have meanings. Once again, the author of the study, where you got the St. Thomas quotes from, follows up with the following passage from SAINT THOMAS HIMSELF:

    The minister of the sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is, and in the words which he utters the intention of the Church is expressed.  This intention suffices for the perfection of the sacrament unless the contrary is externally expressed on the part of the minister or the recipient of the sacrament.” --- ST III, Q. 64, Art. 8, ad. 2. (Saint Thomas Aquinas)”

    This unmistakably means that the sacrament can be *shown* to be invalid if the minister externally manifests that he
    didn’t have the intention to do what the Church does when he confected the sacrament. I don’t know why this is so difficult for you to understand???

    Here is the author, PLEASE READ:

    The Church is clear about just how little intention is required for a valid sacrament.  All that is required is simply an implicit intention to do what the Church does, and this intention is expressed in the form of the sacrament.  Because of this, one can hardly help having the intention when performing a sacrament. 
    It is possible, however, for a sacrament to be invalid because one deliberately excludes the intention of doing what the Church does.  This could only be known if the minister were to state in some way that he deliberately excluded the intention to perform that sacrament.  Unless a minister expressly states that for a particular sacrament, or number of sacraments, he intended to not do what the Church does, then the Church presumes that the minister intended what he did.

    DO YOU SEE YOUR ERROR?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #290 on: February 24, 2023, 09:21:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    This unmistakably means that the sacrament can be *shown* to be invalid if the minister externally manifests that he didn’t have the intention to do what the Church does when he confected the sacrament. I don’t know why this is so difficult for you to understand???
    :facepalm:  You're answering a question that hasn't been asked.  Or you're debating a point that Ladislaus hasn't made. 

    Ladisalus (and others) are saying that there is no INTERNAL intention ALONE (without an external sign) that can invalidate.   

    You keep quoting passages which reference an EXTERNAL act or word, which can show invalidating.

    These are 2 different questions/situations.


    Quote
    Unless a minister expressly states that for a particular sacrament, or number of sacraments, he intended to not do what the Church does, then the Church presumes that the minister intended what he did.
    And for the entire thread, Ladislaus (and others) have been ONLY debating the INTERNAL issue, where NO EXPRESSION is made.  So your quotes deal with an entirely different circuмstance.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #291 on: February 25, 2023, 05:46:07 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  You're answering a question that hasn't been asked.  Or you're debating a point that Ladislaus hasn't made. 

    Ladisalus (and others) are saying that there is no INTERNAL intention ALONE (without an external sign) that can invalidate.   

    You keep quoting passages which reference an EXTERNAL act or word, which can show invalidating.

    These are 2 different questions/situations.

    And for the entire thread, Ladislaus (and others) have been ONLY debating the INTERNAL issue, where NO EXPRESSION is made.  So your quotes deal with an entirely different circuмstance.


    We all understand that the lack of intention can render the sacrament invalid due to a change in the matter or form (externals). Pope Leo XIII made this clear when he discussed Anglican orders. You are battling windmills. :facepalm:

    What I and others are saying is that, yes, if the minister has the intention internally NOT to do what the Church does and manifests that externally afterwards, we must deem that the sacrament was invalid. Short of this we *must* accept all sacraments as valid as long as the matter and form have not been changed.

    Read again carefully:

    “Defect of intention must be very rare, with the sole exception of marriage, in which diverse motives may operate to cause defect of real will.  There is always an abstract possibility that a man or woman may merely simulate marriage consent.  In spite of this, people do not generally worry about the validity of their marriages; the presumption is always that the internal mind corresponds to the words spoken.  So it is, likewise, with all the sacraments; the presumption always is that the minister intends what he does.” (pp.491-492, no.567) --- Leeming, Bernard, S.J. Principles of Sacramental Theology. 1956.

    “Similarly, St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that unless the minister externally expresses that he did not intend to do what the Church does when he was performing a sacrament, then the intention expressed in the words he uttered in the sacrament suffices for the Church to presume validity. 

    “The minister of the sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is, and in the words which he utters the intention of the Church is expressed.  This intention suffices for the perfection of the sacrament unless the contrary is externally expressed on the part of the minister or the recipient of the sacrament.” --- ST III, Q. 64, Art. 8, ad. 2.

    “Consequently, as long as the matter and form are correct, the Church does not, as a rule, doubt the intention of the minister.  No Catholic should doubt what the Church does not doubt. 

    "As a general rule there is no doubt about the intention of the minister of the sacraments provided the matter and the form are correctly posited.  It is taken for granted that the minister has the intention of doing what the Church does." (p.ix) --- De Salvo, Rev. Raphael, O.S.B., S.T.L. The Dogmatic Theology on the Intention of the Minister in the Confection of the Sacraments. 1949.  

    “Therefore the Church holds, and till the contrary is proved wishes all to hold, that such due intention is never absent whensoever the minister seriously goes through the sacramental rite she has prescribed, using the matter and form which she uses.” (p.105) --- Brandi, Rev. S. M., S.J. and Smith, Sydney F., S.J.  A Last Word on Anglican Ordinations.1897. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #292 on: February 25, 2023, 06:56:21 AM »
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  • We all understand that the lack of intention can render the sacrament invalid due to a change in the matter or form (externals). Pope Leo XIII made this clear when he discussed Anglican orders. You are battling windmills. :facepalm:

    Again, could you please READ Leo XIII?  He stated that the perveted intention of the Anglican Rite was due to their having tampered with the form so that THE RITE no longer clearly expressed the intention OF THE CHURCH for the Sacrament.  Has nothing to do with the individual mental state of the minister.

    In fact, Leo XIII's teaching is the perfect corollar to this, where he taught that NO AMOUNT of positive internal intention on part of the MINISTER could supply the defective intention of the RITE that had been butchered, so that even if a given minister had the correct intention, it didn't suffice.

    There's a bunch of reading into sources going on here due to bias.

    I'll come back later with the citations from St. Thomas, who teaches word for word exactly what I've beeing saying and who refutes every one of these absurd objections.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #293 on: February 25, 2023, 07:10:10 AM »
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  • It just doesn't sink in here with people that they are conflating internal intention with intending to do what the Church intends, when it's with intending to do what the Church does.  There's no amount of mental "wishing away" of the Sacramental effect that the Mason Lienart could have done to invalidate the Sacrament.

    St. Thomas gives a concrete example to illustrate the point.  You have a servant sent by his master to take alms to some poor person.  He carries out the orders, but is secretly plotting some mischief, such as to steal the alms from the man (now that he knows that he has them).  So he's underminig the intent of his master, and has no intention of conforming with what the master intended, i.e. to relieve the poor person of some poverty and need, but he nevertheless carries out the instructions of the master.

    St. Thomas here clearly illustrates the difference between intending to DO what the Chuch DOES.  This servant intended to carry out the orders of the master ... even though the entire time he was plotting against the "effect" of what the master wished to accomplish.  This servant taking the alms, accoding to St. Thomas, is akin to the necessary intention.

    +Lienart goes to an announced ordination rite at 10AM on some Saturday, puts on his vestments, and follows the Rite.  He knows FULL WELL that he's acting as a functinary of the Church, knows full well that the Church views this as an official celebration of the Rite.  He then intends to perform the rite.  Valid.  Period.  No amount of mental gymnastics could override this intention.

    If I hold the loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger, while thinking "I do not wish that he die.  I do not wish that he die." ... did  I intend to kill him.  Absolutely, regardless of this schizophrenic mind-game.  I INTENDED to DO that which has the EFFECT of killing the man.  So I intended to kill him.  This is what was distinguished in the book as direct vs. reflexive intention.  I clearly intended (directly) to kill him, despite the fact that I played this mental game (reflexive intention) to try wishing it away.

    These are the two types of internal intention being conflated here.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #294 on: February 25, 2023, 07:30:26 AM »
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  • I think you all need to give up this thread for Lent. :laugh1:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #295 on: February 25, 2023, 07:40:09 AM »
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  • I think you all need to give up this thread for Lent. :laugh1:

    I don't know.  It seems like it's good penance.  :-)

    PS -- why is there no simple "smilie face" smilie?  Really the many reason smilies / emoticons were invented was to give indication that a comment was said in jest, or tongue in cheeck, vs. seriously, and it consisted originally of just a simple smilie fact.

    So there's a huge difference between saying ...

    You're such an idiot.

    AND

    You're such an idiot (smile).

    But there's no actual plain SMILE in the smilie collection.


    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #296 on: February 25, 2023, 07:48:00 AM »
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  • I don't know.  It seems like it's good penance.  :-)

    PS -- why is there no simple "smilie face" smilie?  Really the many reason smilies / emoticons were invented was to give indication that a comment was said in jest, or tongue in cheeck, vs. seriously, and it consisted originally of just a simple smilie fact.

    So there's a huge difference between saying ...

    You're such an idiot.

    AND

    You're such an idiot (smile).

    But there's no actual plain SMILE in the smilie collection.
    I think there are others we could use as well.  I tend to revert to right clicking and using the emojis on my computer: 😊

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #297 on: February 25, 2023, 08:38:58 AM »
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  • PS -- why is there no simple "smilie face" smilie?  Really the many reason smilies / emoticons were invented was to give indication that a comment was said in jest, or tongue in cheeck, vs. seriously, and it consisted originally of just a simple smilie fact.

    So there's a huge difference between saying ...

    You're such an idiot.

    AND

    You're such an idiot (smile).

    But there's no actual plain SMILE in the smilie collection.

    Hear, hear!!! Glad someone finally said it. I thought I was an idiot - insert smilie? - for not being able to find it or something. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #298 on: February 25, 2023, 09:25:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    What I and others are saying is that, yes, if the minister has the intention internally NOT to do what the Church does and manifests that externally afterwards, we must deem that the sacrament was invalid.
    No one is debating this.  We all agree.


    Again, here's the question under debate:  
    if the minister has the intention internally NOT to do what the Church does and manifests that externally afterwards and does NOT manifest this externally, then what?  

    Answer:  Since there was no external manifestation, we must conclude validity.  Also, even though the minister have a contrary INTERNAL intention, since he ACTUALLY performed the rite (i.e. he EXTERNALLY did what the Church DOES) then, again, we must conclude validity.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #299 on: February 25, 2023, 10:58:59 AM »
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  • No one is debating this.  We all agree.


    Again, here's the question under debate: 
    if the minister has the intention internally NOT to do what the Church does and manifests that externally afterwards and does NOT manifest this externally, then what? 

    Answer:  Since there was no external manifestation, we must conclude validity.  Also, even though the minister have a contrary INTERNAL intention, since he ACTUALLY performed the rite (i.e. he EXTERNALLY did what the Church DOES) then, again, we must conclude validity.
    “does NOT manifest this externally, then what?”

    As I said in a previous post, the sacrament is considered valid. Period. No if’s and’s or but’s. Only God and the perpetrator knows that the sacrament is actually invalid.

    Answer:  Since there was no external manifestation, we must conclude validity.  Also, even though the minister have a contrary INTERNAL intention, since he ACTUALLY performed the rite (i.e. he EXTERNALLY did what the Church DOES) then, again, we must conclude validity.Answer:  Since there was no external manifestation, we must conclude validity.  Also, even though the minister have a contrary INTERNAL intention, since he ACTUALLY performed the rite (i.e. he EXTERNALLY did what the Church DOES) then, again, we must conclude validity.”

    I believe we agree, thank you.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?