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Author Topic: Was Lienart Really a Mason?  (Read 18417 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
« Reply #270 on: February 20, 2023, 07:49:42 PM »
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  • No, this is NOT what Ladislaus is saying.

    Let's let Ladislaus say what Ladislaus is saying:

    Reply #2 in this thread (you know, way back on p.1?):

    "So a hypothetical Mason Lienart could sit there the entire time thinking, "I do not wish to ordain.  I do not wish to ordain."  But if he performs the Rite he intends to do the ordination, and therefore to ordain."

    THAT's precisely what is condemned by Alexander VIII, and precisely what is advocated by the School of Catharinus and the later Jansenists.

    There couldn't be a clearer case of invalidity than deliberately rejecting the requisite intention.
    Hmm, that is quite something else, isn't it? I started out a bit rusty too I must admit.
    But I doubt he would hold that opinion now.
    I am sure he will be back to enlighten us.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #271 on: February 20, 2023, 07:52:37 PM »
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  • Hmm, that is quite something else, isn't it? I started out a bit rusty too I must admit.
    But I doubt he would hold that opinion now.
    I am sure he will be back to enlighten us.

    He absolutely still holds the same opinion, which is why he continues to evade de Lugo's question.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #272 on: February 21, 2023, 10:39:45 AM »
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  • Quote
    "So a hypothetical Mason Lienart could sit there the entire time thinking, "I do not wish to ordain.  I do not wish to ordain."  But if he performs the Rite he intends to do the ordination, and therefore to ordain."

    THAT's precisely what is condemned by Alexander VIII, and precisely what is advocated by the School of Catharinus and the later Jansenists.
    This could be interpreted multiple ways, yet you always interpret it negatively...as a condemnation of whomever you have manufactured a war against.


    "I do not wish to ordain"....but does it anyways.  That's different from the PRECISE contra-intention of "I'm going to withhold the grace of ordination."  Or, more simply, "I am not going to ordain."

    Ladislaus deserves some slack here.  His example was one of a bishop who may not want to ordain because he is lazy, or hates the Faith, or hates his job.  But if he still goes ahead and performs the act, without the intention to withhold grace, then it's valid.

    The "I don't want to" was poorly worded for this example, but it's not the same as "I'm not going to."  Plenty of things in life we don't want to do but we still do them.  Emotions don't invalidate.  It would take a purposeful, clear contrary-intention to invalidate.  Ladislaus was explaining the former, not the latter.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #273 on: February 21, 2023, 10:41:22 AM »
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  • This could be interpreted multiple ways, yet you always interpret it negatively...as a condemnation of whomever you have manufactured a war against.


    "I do not wish to ordain"....but does it anyways.  That's different from the PRECISE contra-intention of "I'm going to withhold the grace of ordination."  Or, more simply, "I am not going to ordain."

    Ladislaus deserves some slack here.  His example was one of a bishop who may not want to ordain because he is lazy, or hates the Faith, or hates his job.  But if he still goes ahead and performs the act, without the intention to withhold grace, then it's valid.

    The "I don't want to" was poorly worded for this example, but it's not the same as "I'm not going to."  Plenty of things in life we don't want to do but we still do them.  Emotions don't invalidate.  It would take a purposeful, clear contrary-intention to invalidate.  Ladislaus was explaining the former, not the latter.

    Perhaps you could use the hermeneutic of continuity?! :facepalm::jester::laugh2:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #274 on: February 21, 2023, 10:50:11 AM »
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  • I knew you wouldn't understand.  I wrote this for the benefit of others.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #275 on: February 21, 2023, 10:53:44 AM »
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  • I knew you wouldn't understand.  I wrote this for the benefit of others.

    I have a strange feeling Meg and Stubborn will find it extremely "helpful."  :laugh1::laugh2:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #276 on: February 21, 2023, 11:11:33 AM »
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  • This could be interpreted multiple ways, yet you always interpret it negatively...as a condemnation of whomever you have manufactured a war against.


    "I do not wish to ordain"....but does it anyways.  That's different from the PRECISE contra-intention of "I'm going to withhold the grace of ordination."  Or, more simply, "I am not going to ordain."

    Ladislaus deserves some slack here.  His example was one of a bishop who may not want to ordain because he is lazy, or hates the Faith, or hates his job.  But if he still goes ahead and performs the act, without the intention to withhold grace, then it's valid.

    The "I don't want to" was poorly worded for this example, but it's not the same as "I'm not going to."  Plenty of things in life we don't want to do but we still do them.  Emotions don't invalidate.  It would take a purposeful, clear contrary-intention to invalidate.  Ladislaus was explaining the former, not the latter.

    I find this quite helpful. Thanks for posting it. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #277 on: February 21, 2023, 01:29:24 PM »
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  • I think everyone should keep in mind that the *only* way to prove that the sacrament is invalid (or the positive doubt) would be to have the testimony of the perpetrator. Other than that, the sacrament is considered valid. This is not complicated.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #278 on: February 21, 2023, 08:21:19 PM »
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  • Do you have some kind of philosophical objection to people discussing the theology of the sacraments?
    Do you consider sacramental theology unimportant?
      
    Absolutely not.  I have discussed such topics at great length on CI in the past.  However, I have no interest in getting entangled in this discussion which, surprisingly to me, has reached almost 20 pages.

    There is only so much time in a day and little time left before we all face immense personal and societal challenges.  If you choose to continue to debate the matter, I wish you well.  I need to use the majority of my limited free time to prepare for the coming troubles.  Godspeed to you and yours, PV.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #279 on: February 22, 2023, 12:22:14 AM »
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  •  
    Absolutely not.  I have discussed such topics at great length on CI in the past.  However, I have no interest in getting entangled in this discussion which, surprisingly to me, has reached almost 20 pages.

    There is only so much time in a day and little time left before we all face immense personal and societal challenges.  If you choose to continue to debate the matter, I wish you well.  I need to use the majority of my limited free time to prepare for the coming troubles.  Godspeed to you and yours, PV.
    Agreed on that Gladius.
    More time meditating on the Passion this Lent and praying Rosaries!
    God bless you and yours too. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #280 on: February 22, 2023, 07:11:55 AM »
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  • I think everyone should keep in mind that the *only* way to prove that the sacrament is invalid (or the positive doubt) would be to have the testimony of the perpetrator. Other than that, the sacrament is considered valid. This is not complicated.

    That depends.  If a priest / bishop deliberately botched the words of consecration at Mass or the essential form of an ordination, and no one heard it, then the individual would have to confess, which is unlikely if it had been done deliberately.  But that's why most of the Sacraments require (under normal circuмstances) for there to be witnesses, and which the Church requires 2 co-consecrators for bishops.

    But absent a butchery of the essential form, if +Lienart or some other Masonic infiltrator performed the Rite of the Church, it was valid.  Period.  No amount of internal mental "I don't intend this consecration to be valid." would undo that.  There's never been any requirement for the minister to intend what the Church intends or to intend the Sacramental effect.  He simply must intend to perform the Church's Rite.

    If I'm a priest to show up for 9AM Mass and perform the cermony (correctly pronouncing the essential form), I'm acting as a minister of the Church and intending to do what the Church does.  Valid Mass.  Period.

    Someone trying mental gymnastics is very similar to the contrary-intention stuff in my analogy.  I hold a loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger.  I could in my mind schizophrenically say "I don't intend for this man to die." but by pulling the trigger I intended to do what is necessary to kill the man, and the man would in fact end up dead, and i intended for him to die by intending to pull the trigger.  It's as simple as that.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #281 on: February 22, 2023, 08:50:22 PM »
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  • That depends.  If a priest / bishop deliberately botched the words of consecration at Mass or the essential form of an ordination, and no one heard it, then the individual would have to confess, which is unlikely if it had been done deliberately.  But that's why most of the Sacraments require (under normal circuмstances) for there to be witnesses, and which the Church requires 2 co-consecrators for bishops.

    But absent a butchery of the essential form, if +Lienart or some other Masonic infiltrator performed the Rite of the Church, it was valid.  Period.  No amount of internal mental "I don't intend this consecration to be valid." would undo that.  There's never been any requirement for the minister to intend what the Church intends or to intend the Sacramental effect.  He simply must intend to perform the Church's Rite.

    If I'm a priest to show up for 9AM Mass and perform the cermony (correctly pronouncing the essential form), I'm acting as a minister of the Church and intending to do what the Church does.  Valid Mass.  Period.

    Someone trying mental gymnastics is very similar to the contrary-intention stuff in my analogy.  I hold a loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger.  I could in my mind schizophrenically say "I don't intend for this man to die." but by pulling the trigger I intended to do what is necessary to kill the man, and the man would in fact end up dead, and i intended for him to die by intending to pull the trigger.  It's as simple as that.

    Sorry, but you are incorrect. The intention is always presumed *unless* the minister of the sacrament states, in the external forum, that he didn’t have the proper intention when he preformed the sacrament:


    “The minister of the sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is, and in the words which he utters the intention of the Church is expressed.  This intention suffices for the perfection of the sacrament unless the contrary is externally expressed on the part of the minister or the recipient of the sacrament.” --- ST III, Q. 64, Art. 8, ad. 2. (Saint Thomas Aquinas)



    “Defect of intention must be very rare, with the sole exception of marriage, in which diverse motives may operate to cause defect of real will.  There is always an abstract possibility that a man or woman may merely simulate marriage consent.  In spite of this, people do not generally worry about the validity of their marriages; the presumption is always that the internal mind corresponds to the words spoken.  So it is, likewise, with all the sacraments; the presumption always is that the minister intends what he does.” (pp.491-492, no.567) --- Leeming, Bernard, S.J. Principles of Sacramental Theology. 1956. 


    “The ‘implicit intention of doing what Christ instituted' means so vague and small a thing that one can hardly help having it — unless one deliberately excludes it.” (p.94) --- Fortescue, Adrian, D.D..  The Greek Fathers. 1908. 


    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #282 on: February 24, 2023, 05:57:54 AM »
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  • I’m not sure if this has been already posted but, here is a link to a very good study on sacramental intention focusing on the case of Cardinal Lienart:


    https://archive.org/details/CardinalLienartAndTheIntentionToDoWhatTheChurchDoes-1
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #283 on: February 24, 2023, 07:11:06 AM »
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  • I’m not sure if this has been already posted but, here is a link to a very good study on sacramental intention focusing on the case of Cardinal Lienart:


    https://archive.org/details/CardinalLienartAndTheIntentionToDoWhatTheChurchDoes-1

    Thank you.  Pages 21-28.  Case closed on this stupid thread.  St. Thomas (quoted extensively there) teaches verbatim exactly what I've been saying.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #284 on: February 24, 2023, 07:12:10 AM »
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  • Sorry, but you are incorrect. The intention is always presumed *unless* the minister of the sacrament states, in the external forum, that he didn’t have the proper intention when he preformed the sacrament:

    Wrong.  Please read 21-28 of the link you just posted.  He can say anything he wants about what he "intended" to do or not to do.  It matters nothing.  St. Thomas refutes every objection, teaching clearly that the intention to simply perform the rite as Catholics perform is all that's required, and a perverse intention on the part of the minister means nothing.  That book makes the same distinction I've been making and assigns terms to it, direct vs. reflexive intention ... the schizophrenic double intention.