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Author Topic: Was Lienart Really a Mason?  (Read 18362 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Freaking out?
« Reply #240 on: February 20, 2023, 01:11:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 20, 2023, 12:58:51 PM
    Can you please provide a single instance of de Lugo suggesting a need to read minds?

    As far as I can tell, he’s saying there’s no need to do so.
    The point is, if it ever actually happened there is only one way to know, namely, the minister must come right out at some point after the fact, and actually publicly tell someone that he did not intend to do what the Church does while he actually did what the Church does.

    The whole issue has nothing whatsoever to do with a sleep walking priest or play acting in a movie, the pope condemned ministers who baptized while saying within themselves: "I do not intend to do what the Church does"  WHILE THE MINISTER ACTUALLY DID WHAT THE CHURCH DOES.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #241 on: February 20, 2023, 01:12:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 20, 2023, 01:04:43 PM
    Likely for the same reason.

    I’ll tune back in, if the thread veers back on topic.

    So as not to make wrong assumptions: is that because I'm "one of the hysterically scrupulous who feel destabilized by the Church’s teaching on proper ministerial intention"?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #242 on: February 20, 2023, 01:15:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 20, 2023, 01:12:31 PM
    So as not to make wrong assumptions: is that because I'm "one of the hysterically scrupulous who feel destabilized by the Church’s teaching on proper ministerial intention"?
    You have no idea what you're talking about, everyone knows when the minister is thinking the wrong thing as he does what the Church does! This is what Sean seems to be saying.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #243 on: February 20, 2023, 01:15:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 20, 2023, 12:57:26 PM
    As if the subject of this debate debate is really that simple. It is not that simple.
    .
    The claim that intention is required for sacramental validity is as simple as the claim that oxygen is required to remain alive. It's completely true as it stands, without any further explanation required in either case.
    .
    Of course, there are further explanations that can further expound the nature of sacramental intention just like there are further explanations to illustrate the nature of oxygen, where it comes from, how our bodies use it, and so on. And at that level, everything does get more complex. Which is all the more reason for careful deliberation and understanding when dealing with the material posted. The stuff de Lugo and Cupertino posted more or less literally and completely explains it all. I understand if they are frustrated that people continue to shoot from the hip and reduce the relevant theology into various fears and other empassioned responses/positions. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #244 on: February 20, 2023, 01:24:45 PM »
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    • Quote
    The claim that intention is required for sacramental validity is as simple as the claim that oxygen is required to remain alive.
    The confusion lies in De Lugo's "gotcha" attitude where, instead of correcting the misunderstanding, was weirdly attempting to corner people so he could call them a heretic.

    Typically only Sean practices this type of psychopathic interaction.

    It basically boils down to wanting to be an accuser vs a teacher.  And acting like an argumentative imp instead of a rational human.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #245 on: February 20, 2023, 01:27:08 PM »
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    • The necessity of intention for the valid administration of a sacrament is in the Baltimore Catechism. The Baltimore Catechism is (I would say) the most basic, barebones, and common Church-approved instructional docuмent for lay Catholics. It is extremely straightforward, ridiculously accessible (sold in every Catholic bookstore, even diocesan ones, available for free online in probably half a dozen places), written without jargon, etc. And this teaching is in there.

    I'm not trying to embarrass anyone. Maybe my judgment of what is "simple" is wrong. And if someone didn't know intention is required for the valid administration of a sacrament, that doesn't mean they're stupid. It's a big Catechism, some things are easy to miss. 

    But this doctrine is in there, simply and plainly. And I take that as a sign that it's a doctrine the Church expects her adult lay members to know. I think we all make similar judgments about what is or should be common knowledge among serious adult Catholics. If there is a better standard for that judgment than the Baltimore Catechism, I'm all ears. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #246 on: February 20, 2023, 01:30:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 20, 2023, 01:24:45 PM
    The confusion lies in De Lugo's "gotcha" attitude where, instead of correcting the misunderstanding, was weirdly attempting to corner people so he could call them a heretic.

    Typically only Sean practices this type of psychopathic interaction.

    It basically boils down to wanting to be an accuser vs a teacher.  And acting like an argumentative imp instead of a rational human.

    In other words, you are affirming my response to Meg, where I accused her of being emotional, and this emotionalism being the cause of her confusion (which on the basis of your response/admission, must also apply to you:

    You do get it, you’re just poorly disposed to receive truth.

    I note in fairness to de Lugo, tgat it was Ladislaus who drew first blood (on p.1), when he rejected Fr. Hunter’s explanation (and the 30 which followed).
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #247 on: February 20, 2023, 01:31:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 20, 2023, 01:15:01 PM
    You have no idea what you're talking about, everyone knows when the minister is thinking the wrong thing as he does what the Church does! This is what Sean seems to be saying.

    Yes, we are presumed to be mind-readers. It's just that simple. No need for further explanation. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #248 on: February 20, 2023, 01:31:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 20, 2023, 01:24:45 PM
    The confusion lies in De Lugo's "gotcha" attitude where, instead of correcting the misunderstanding, was weirdly attempting to corner people so he could call them a heretic.

    Typically only Sean practices this type of psychopathic interaction.

    It basically boils down to wanting to be an accuser vs a teacher.  And acting like an argumentative imp instead of a rational human.
    de Lugo was clearly frustrated, and in my opinion justifiably so given how capably and thoroughly he docuмented 'his' position. As an observer of this thread, I could only make sense of the replies contrary to him as having literally not read him. If you think he overstepped the boundaries of Christian charity, say a prayer for him. I'm sure his blood pressure could use it. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #249 on: February 20, 2023, 01:37:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on February 20, 2023, 01:31:56 PM
    de Lugo was clearly frustrated, and in my opinion justifiably so given how capably and thoroughly he docuмented 'his' position. As an observer of this thread, I could only make sense of the replies contrary to him as having literally not read him. If you think he overstepped the boundaries of Christian charity, say a prayer for him. I'm sure his blood pressure could use it.

    Well, if he's going to put himself forth as an expert, then he needs patience with the dumb forum members who don't get it. If he suffers from high blood pressure, then antagonizing forum members is not a good thing. If this is how Resistance supporters treat people, then I'll consider removing my support of it.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #250 on: February 20, 2023, 01:47:06 PM »
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    • Quote
    The necessity of intention for the valid administration of a sacrament is in the Baltimore Catechism.
    De Lugo started off mentioning the anathema of an error, and attacking from there.  When questioned about the anathema, he started talking about Jansenism.  He never explained anything from the start.  It's a bizzare place to start an argument...from a remote and isolated event of history...and then assume everyone knows what you're talking about.



    Quote
    I note in fairness to de Lugo, tgat it was Ladislaus who drew first blood (on p.1), when he rejected Fr. Hunter’s explanation (and the 30 which followed).
    Not true.  The article was good.  Ladislaus made a mention of the "summary points" and how they were too simplified.  I agree.  For all the article's good details, the "summary points" were oddly too generalized.  De Lugo started defending the article, instead of answering the questions on the summary.  Then the thread lost its way. 
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #251 on: February 20, 2023, 01:54:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on February 20, 2023, 01:27:08 PM
    The necessity of intention for the valid administration of a sacrament is in the Baltimore Catechism. The Baltimore Catechism is (I would say) the most basic, barebones, and common Church-approved instructional docuмent for lay Catholics. It is extremely straightforward, ridiculously accessible (sold in every Catholic bookstore, even diocesan ones, available for free online in probably half a dozen places), written without jargon, etc. And this teaching is in there.

    I'm not trying to embarrass anyone. Maybe my judgment of what is "simple" is wrong. And if someone didn't know intention is required for the valid administration of a sacrament, that doesn't mean they're stupid. It's a big Catechism, some things are easy to miss.

    But this doctrine is in there, simply and plainly. And I take that as a sign that it's a doctrine the Church expects her adult lay members to know. I think we all make similar judgments about what is or should be common knowledge among serious adult Catholics. If there is a better standard for that judgment than the Baltimore Catechism, I'm all ears.

    Mith,

    It'd be a good idea to post the relevant BC section here. I'll try to find it but since you are familiar with it it might be easy for you to find. If I beat you to the punch, ignore of course.

    DR
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #252 on: February 20, 2023, 02:07:45 PM »
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    • Mith-

    Consider the unlikelihood that any effort on your part will bear fruit.

    The time is long past to shake off the dust.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #253 on: February 20, 2023, 02:08:01 PM »
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    • This is succinct and pretty good:


    Quote
    If a pagan or anyone else were to perform a sacrament, he would not have to believe that his words and actions had any effect. But he would have to intend what the Church does, namely, to perform the actions and say the words, without exteriorly expressing any contrary intent (such as an intent to merely demonstrate how a sacrament could be performed).

    https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/faith/the-sacramental-intention-which-is-needed-for-valid-sacraments

    The contrary intent, of course, can also be expressed without words, such as the kids playing at baptizing, or an atheist mocking the baptismal rite to ridicule Christians. By word, it would be like in the example Sean gave of the bishop saying he had not intention of confecting the sacrament. 

    The confusion (and hence "complexity" for me) comes in with simple definition of "intending what the Church intended," since "intent" suggests or invokes the subjectivity of the actor, and that false suggestion is what gets the opposition to it. 


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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #254 on: February 20, 2023, 02:09:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 20, 2023, 02:07:45 PM
    Mith-

    Consider the unlikelihood that any effort on your part will bear fruit.

    The time is long past to shake off the dust.

    For you, with your assumptions about others being "hysterical." 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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