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Author Topic: Was Lienart Really a Mason?  (Read 18415 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
« Reply #225 on: February 20, 2023, 12:45:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on February 20, 2023, 12:41:22 PM
    Imagine de Lugo went on Cathinfo and said "you need oxygen to live; without it you'll die." Then a horde starts freaking out, worried they're going to step outside any second and find a world without oxygen. Then the horde comes to the realization that oxygen is plenteous and really, really difficult to run out of. And they accuse de Lugo of overstating the necessity of oxygen.

    That's this thread.

    👏👏👏
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Freaking out?
    « Reply #226 on: February 20, 2023, 12:50:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on February 20, 2023, 12:41:22 PM
    Imagine de Lugo went on Cathinfo and said "you need oxygen to live; without it you'll die." Then a horde starts freaking out, worried they're going to step outside any second and find a world without oxygen. Then the horde comes to the realization that oxygen is plenteous and really, really difficult to run out of. And they accuse de Lugo of overstating the necessity of oxygen.

    That's this thread.

    Well, I'v'e only really jointed the discussion today and haven't been following the thread that closely, but I haven't seen anybody involved in the discussion today "freaking out." 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Freaking out?
    « Reply #227 on: February 20, 2023, 12:55:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 20, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
    Well, I'v'e only really jointed the discussion today and haven't been following the thread that closely, but I haven't seen anybody involved in the discussion today "freaking out."

    Right, nobody's "freaking out".  We're having an argument/disagreement ... along the lines of many similar such prior arguments.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Freaking out?
    « Reply #228 on: February 20, 2023, 12:56:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 20, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
    Well, I'v'e only really jointed the discussion today and haven't been following the thread that closely, but I haven't seen anybody involved in the discussion today "freaking out."
    I'd say it's: Imagine de Lugo went on Cathinfo and said "your mind can be read, but only by other Catholics and only if you're a minister and only when you're administering the sacraments." Then a horde starts saying, "No one can read minds."

    That's this thread.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #229 on: February 20, 2023, 12:57:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on February 20, 2023, 12:41:22 PM
    Imagine de Lugo went on Cathinfo and said "you need oxygen to live; without it you'll die." Then a horde starts freaking out, worried they're going to step outside any second and find a world without oxygen. Then the horde comes to the realization that oxygen is plenteous and really, really difficult to run out of. And they accuse de Lugo of overstating the necessity of oxygen.

    That's this thread.

    As if the subject of this debate debate is really that simple. It is not that simple. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Freaking out?
    « Reply #230 on: February 20, 2023, 12:58:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 20, 2023, 12:56:45 PM
    I'd say it's: Imagine de Lugo went on Cathinfo and said "your mind can be read, but only by other Catholics and only if you're a minister and only when you're administering the sacraments." Then a horde starts saying, "No one can read minds."

    That's this thread.

    Can you please provide a single instance of de Lugo suggesting a need to read minds?

    As far as I can tell, he’s saying there’s no need to do so.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #231 on: February 20, 2023, 01:00:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 20, 2023, 12:57:26 PM
    As if the subject of this debate debate is really that simple. It is not that simple.

    It is absolutely that simple.

    Its just not simple for YOU, because you’re one of the hysterically scrupulous who feel destabilized by the Church’s teaching on proper ministerial intention.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #232 on: February 20, 2023, 01:01:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 20, 2023, 01:00:33 PM
    It is absolutely that simple.

    Its just not simple for YOU, because you’re one of the hysterically scrupulous who feel destabilized by the Church’s teaching on proper ministerial intention.

    Come on, Sean. It's not simple. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #233 on: February 20, 2023, 01:03:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 20, 2023, 01:01:36 PM
    Come on, Sean. It's not simple.

    I’m sorry you’re struggling, but to me it is Theology 101.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #234 on: February 20, 2023, 01:03:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 20, 2023, 12:57:26 PM
    As if the subject of this debate debate is really that simple. It is not that simple.

    I agree with you Meg: it's far from simple. 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #235 on: February 20, 2023, 01:04:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 20, 2023, 01:03:13 PM
    I’m sorry you’re struggling, but to me it is Theology 101.

    I'm glad for you.

    But isn't there a beatitude regarding the simple?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #236 on: February 20, 2023, 01:04:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 20, 2023, 01:03:31 PM
    I agree with you Meg: it's far from simple.

    Likely for the same reason.

    I’ll tune back in, if the thread veers back on topic.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #237 on: February 20, 2023, 01:06:30 PM »
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    Such claims have been made (i.e. the example of lack of matrimony intent), and historically/traditionally no annulment has followed, because it is extraordinarily difficult to prove that someone did not intend to do something that they did. 
    Of course it's difficult to prove an internal intention.  So when "Rifan says he feigned the words of consecration (which means he lacked both form and intention)" are we supposed to trust him on his word alone?  No evidence needed?

    But yet the Church requires evidence for the same situation in regards to marriage?  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #238 on: February 20, 2023, 01:08:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 20, 2023, 01:03:13 PM
    I’m sorry you’re struggling, but to me it is Theology 101.

    Then you must believe yourself to be far, far above everyone else. You and de Lugo. You and De Lugo accuse Catholics here of adhering to condemned or heretical doctrine. Shame on you for your pride and arrogance. It is not that simple.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #239 on: February 20, 2023, 01:11:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 20, 2023, 01:08:24 PM
    Then you must believe yourself to be far, far above everyone else. You and de Lugo. You and De Lugo accuse Catholics here of adhering to condemned or heretical doctrine. Shame on you. It is not that simple.

    Quite frankly, you’re a delicate soul, ignorant of Church teaching, who now feels needlessly destabilized to learn a covert contrary intention invalidates a sacrament.  That your emotional faculty predominates over your intellect is the cause of your struggle.  For those who do not labor under that baggage, this matter is quite simple.

    I will pray for your peace.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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